Saab is owned by Spyker, finally!

[hawk20]

But thoughtful cars that lose money don't survive long term. Without all the bits and bobs from GM they would have gone long ago -sadly. Now just a question of time -of how long optimism can over-ride rational thinking.

 

[EDZ649]

My "Saab Spyker" is happy at last! LOL!!! (use your imagination and you can see him smiling... )

Your missus isn't, she's looking away in disgust!

 

[grober]

The only way small manufacturers can survive is to make "unique" cars that offer something that other mass manufacturers don't. Saab like Volvo tried to compete with the "big boys" Audi, BMW and Mercedes in the lucrative executive market. Their mistake was to try to compete with them on their "home turf". Instead of offering simple honestly engineered value for money large saloons they tried to pull a fast one by dressing up "mass market engineering" of questionable reliability in different bodies and charging handsomely for buying and servicing them . The desirable fleet markets soon saw through this and residuals took a headlong dive. That's not to say there weren't opportunities on the way. Mercedes quality took a dive following their disastrous merger with Chrysler and the chief beneficiary was VAG. All those Skoda Octavias and Superbs or VW Passats could have been SAABS. What happened to all the Rover 75, Vauxhall Omega and Ford Scorpio/Grenada buyers - they bought Honda Mazda or Toyota -- they also didn't have the kudos of the Germans but they didn't fall to bits or cost a fortune to service either. SAAB failed to consolidate the existing small part of the market they did have and use the marques strengths to expand into gaps abandoned by the major players. GM lack of interest and complacency really did for them in the end.

 

[Dieselman]

They could perhaps find a useful partnership with Bristol Cars - both manufacturers with links to the aero industry .

Neither SAAB or Bristol have had any links to aircraft for at least 60 years. That was the joker that SAAB lived on with the 99,900 and 9000, which was just a Fiat Croma/Lancia Thema in drag.

MY BIL was a 9000/9-5 fan, but I thought his were decidedly ordinary and durability wasn't good. He once said that once you had bought a SABB you had to keep on buying them because only SAAB dealers would give you a decent trade in...

 

[Oli]

I had a 9-5 Aero a while back, it was ok but I never particularly got on that well with it, ended up ditching it for a CLK and doubt I would have another one.
I do realy like the old Saabs though, the 900s and 9000s.

 

[hawk20]

The only way small manufacturers can survive is to make "unique" cars that offer something that other mass manufacturers don't. Saab like Volvo tried to compete with the "big boys" Audi, BMW and Mercedes in the lucrative executive market. Their mistake was to try to compete with them on their "home turf". Instead of offering simple honestly engineered value for money large saloons .......

But Saab are not a mass manufacturer. Volume is far too small to be that. Value for money large saloons involve either borrowing loads of parts from another manufacturer (to save design and tooling costs) or involve very large production runs (in order to spread the costs of high design and tooling costs).

Saab customers hate using mass market parts from GM or anyone else.
But Saab cannot get the volume to cover tooling up everything for itself.

A few can survive making niche cars at exotic prices in tiny quantities (Rolls, Bentley, Lambo, Ferrari etc) but their market share is insignificant.

In the markets that matter, it is essential to gain economies of scale in order to compete with the big boys. Is Saab's turnover as big as MB's R and D budget?

 

[finisterre]

I am an ex owner of four different 900turbos including a rather nice carlsson.

I gave up on them when they produced the 9-5. It felt flabby and dated.

I am hoping for a compact convertible saab. It is time to lose the fat **** and produce something small, sporty, safe and stylish.

 

[markjay]

I think the problem for car manufacturers these days is that they have two choices really.

Either they are part of a multi-billion automotive giant that has the resources to develop new platforms and new engines, while keeping ahead of technology, or they end-up as a small manufacturer recycling old model and putting together cars from bits made by others.

Saab was the former, as part of GM, and is now at risk of becoming the latter, as Rover did.

I never quite understood Rover's management buy-out. As part of the BMW group, they were able to have a decent new car designed (the 75). On their own, and with no R&D budget to compete with the likes of GM/Ford/BMW/VAG/MB/PSA/Renault/Fiat/Toyota/ etc etc, where would their next car come from? The poor old Rovers were re-invented over and over again, and their 'next' car was supposed to be a re-badged Italian purchase. That didn't work... surprise surprise.

What Skyper is going to do with Saab, is beyond me. I don't see them investing the billions required to come-up with a brand-new originally-designed next-generation Saab to take on the next models from MB/BMW/VAG.

They are more likely to team up with a known player that will provide them with platforms and engines, albeit tweeked to their specifications. But this what Saab have been doing up to now through GM, with little success, so where's the big breakthrough?

Sorry, but unless they do something radically different than everyone else I really don't see them lasting very long in their current form.

 

[snoop51]

I think the problem for car manufacturers these days is that they have two choices really.

Either they are part of a multi-billion automotive giant that has the resources to develop new platforms and new engines, while keeping ahead of technology, or they end-up as a small manufacturer recycling old model and putting together cars from bits made by others.

Saab was the former, as part of GM, and is now at risk of becoming the latter, as Rover did.

I never quite understood Rover's management buy-out. As part of the BMW group, they were able to have a decent new car designed (the 75). On their own, and with no R&D budget to compete with the likes of GM/Ford/BMW/VAG/MB/PSA/Renault/Fiat/Toyota/ etc etc, where would their next car come from? The poor old Rovers were re-invented over and over again, and their 'next' car was supposed to be a re-badged Italian purchase. That didn't work... surprise surprise.

What Skyper is going to do with Saab, is beyond me. I don't see them investing the billions required to come-up with a brand-new originally-designed next-generation Saab to take on the next models from MB/BMW/VAG.

They are more likely to team up with a known player that will provide them with platforms and engines, albeit tweeked to their specifications. But this what Saab have been doing up to now through GM, with little success, so where's the big breakthrough?

Sorry, but unless they do something radically different than everyone else I really don't see them lasting very long in their current form.

As you said. Shame really liked my 2 Saab's.

 

[markjay]

The exception are super-cars, where they can still put in decent R&D paid by a six figure price tag.

But even so, six-figure car manufacturers these days are either owned by an international player, or share components with others. I can't think of a single main-stream exclusive car maker that is wholly independent and designs the platforms and engine in-house from scratch.

 

[bpsorrel]

Koenigsegg? I believe the CCX is all their own work as they extensively re-engineered the previous Ford V8 and build it entirely in-house. So, it can be done.. And, they were at one point in the running to buy Saab.

 

[markjay]

Koenigsegg? I believe the CCX is all their own work as they extensively re-engineered the previous Ford V8 and build it entirely in-house. So, it can be done.. And, they were at one point in the running to buy Saab.

Good point. But surely they will not be able to sell Saabs at Koenigsegg prices?

 

[bpsorrel]

Of course not!

But, don't forget, Saab now have Vladimir Antonov's cash to hand, and that is a big wad indeed!....

I hear now that the proposed 92, a new small car that was put on the back burner due to cash limitations, is now getting the go-ahead due to the Antonov/Snoras available cash.

Don't right off Saab just yet.....

 

[hawk20]

Of course not!

But, don't forget, Saab now have Vladimir Antonov's cash to hand, and that is a big wad indeed!....

I hear now that the proposed 92, a new small car that was put on the back burner due to cash limitations, is now getting the go-ahead due to the Antonov/Snoras available cash.

Don't right off Saab just yet.....

No sensible businessman will put in the huge lumps of cash that are needed unless there is a good prospect of a good return. And there is none.

Why did Ford sell Jaguar, Land Rover, and Volvo? Even at their size they lost money year after year.

 

[219]

The exception are super-cars, where they can still put in decent R&D paid by a six figure price tag.

But even so, six-figure car manufacturers these days are either owned by an international player, or share components with others. I can't think of a single main-stream exclusive car maker that is wholly independent and designs the platforms and engine in-house from scratch.

Porsche ? Although affiliated to VAG , I don't think they are owned by them ?

SAAB were a successful manufacturer long before the days of GM and were well known for innovation - wasn't the 99 Turbo the first production car with a turbo ?

Pity they couldn't have merged with Volvo - that might have worked quite well !

 

[markjay]

Porsche ? Although affiliated to VAG , I don't think they are owned by them ?

VAG owns 49.9% of Porsche (the Porsche family owns the other 50.1%).

SAAB were a successful manufacturer long before the days of GM and were well known for innovation - wasn't the 99 Turbo the first production car with a turbo ?

Indeed. Sadly, so was Rover, before being sold to BMW... the P5B is a personal favourite of mine.

Pity they couldn't have merged with Volvo - that might have worked quite well !

Indeed again. In spite of Volvo's safety credentials, in the 70' the Saab 99 was hailed as the world's safest car.

But in this day and age you can not rest on your laurels, in any industry... Haynes practically invented the analogue modem, Psion the hand-held computer, and Netscape the first user-friendly web browser... and where are Amstrad and Spectrum now?

 

[markjay]

I fear that Saab will find themselves in the same situation of Rover and LDV.

When the newspapers were heralding LDV as a great commercial success story following the management buy-out in 1993, I remember thinking to myself - this does not look good. Where is their next car coming from? Officially LDV went under in 2008 due to the recession, but even if they didn't, I doubt they would have been able to compete with the latest offering from Ford/Vauxhall/Renault/Peugeot. Car magazines in the early 2000' already noted that their typical customer base (Police, Royal Mail, etc) were shunning LDVs because they felt 'agriculture' compared to the competition.

It is not just about Spyker having deeper pockets, even assuming that the owners are willing to continue and pump money into a loosing business (which I doubt). Unless they find the resources to develop a brand new chassis with new engines to compete with the best, they will forever be recycling other makers' bits.

Perhaps Skyper will find the angle to market Saab cars to willing audiences, but if they don't then I fear they may go the way of Rover and LDV, i.e. having their production lines and tools sold off to China to make cars for the rapidly growing Chinese market.

 

[219]

Indeed again. In spite of Volvo's safety credentials, in the 70' the Saab 99 was hailed as the world's safest car.

Indeed Alongside the W116 S-Class , especially the 6.9 which was the first car to market with ABS .

 

[markjay]

Perhaps Skyper....

Spyker. S-p-y-k-e-r.

 

[snoop51]

Spyker. S-p-y-k-e-r.

There was I thinking you were referring to Skype on 't'interweb.