Stop expanding the ULEZ to all the London boroughs in 2023

[clk320x]

Sorry but I don't buy into that. The Tesla I drove (P85D) owned by a friend of mine had the ability to switch off regen braking altogether, so the articles you've read would appear to be incorrect on that front.

That’s absolute nonsense.

The options for regen on the older induction motor Tesla cars are ‘standard’ or ‘low’… no off/on option unfortunately…

 

[sgregory124]

That’s absolute nonsense.

The options for regen on the older induction motor Tesla cars are ‘standard’ or ‘low’… no off/on option unfortunately…

You're clearly an 'expert' so i'll keep this brief - whatever setting is or isn't possible on the system, the car still uses the discs and pads like a conventional car when required to do so.

 

[markjay]

Sorry but I don't buy into that. The Tesla I drove (P85D) owned by a friend of mine had the ability to switch off regen braking altogether, so the articles you've read would appear to be incorrect on that front.

You're clearly an 'expert' so i'll keep this brief - whatever setting is or isn't possible on the system, the car still uses the discs and pads like a conventional car when required to do so.

It is possible to use only the mechanical brakes, obviously, but, again, unless you're racing, no one in his right mind will do that when driving normally.

The recuperation statistics on my car show that between 10% and 30% of the energy used is being returned to the battery via braking/slowing-down on each journey, when driving in traffic around town.

Why would anyone deliberately turn-off this default setting? It will increase the cost of the journey, reduce the range causing the car to need more frequent charging, and unnecessarily wear the brakes.

It makes as much sense as saying that Diesel cars aren't frugal, because they can be driven on the motorway with the transmission limited to 3rd gear. Yes, it's possible to do that, but it's unlikely that anyone will actually choose to drive like that on daily basis....

 

[markjay]

Well, I was sceptical about EV's in general, that Video has re-enforced my gut feeling that dipping my toe in the EV Pond is definitely NOT for me!

EVs may not be for you, and that's absolutely fine, but - out of curiosity - which part in the video put you off EVs?

 

[markjay]

Whether I agree with that position or not, it speaks to my comments about road pricing as a taxation model in my post above.

If "those of us who are living and working in cities and other urban areas" do reduce their personal car use then logically the amount of revenue raised from their moving about will also reduce, so the question is "how is that revenue replaced"?

The easy answer - that is already the one proposed - will be either an increase in general taxation, or a further burden on road-use taxation (fuel duty or road pricing), or a combination of both. This will have the effect of shifting the tax burden away from those living & working in cities and urban areas to those who do not. Is that equitable?

I do not disagree, but this is, in fact, only a small part of a bigger discussion.

Governments say they use taxation to shape public behaviour.

Tax or duty on tobacco, alcohol, sugar, car fuel, etc, is meant to make us smoke less, drink less, consume less sugar, and burn less petrol and Diesel in our cars' engines.

But the government's coffers are reliant on us continuing to smoke, drink, and drive - if we all actually did what the government is encouraging us to do... then the country will become bankrupt. Or, more likely, the tax burden will now be spread wider.

The same applies to EVs. If we all moved from ICE to EV, as the government is encouraging us to do, what happens to the tax revenues? How do you deal with this, is a very good question indeed.

 

[clk320x]

You're clearly an 'expert' so i'll keep this brief - whatever setting is or isn't possible on the system, the car still uses the discs and pads like a conventional car when required to do so.

Of course, but I think MJs point is that the regen still does as much of the stopping as possible given the circumstances meaning the discs/pads literally last forever. I know multiple owners with cars over 200k miles still on original pads and discs.

P.S. Your experience in a P85D with induction motors is very different to the newer and more common models which have permanent magnet motors and a much stronger regen.

Even on induction motors though, when you press the brake the regen is exerting a lot of the braking force and the brakes are only really used for that very last few mph of deceleration to a complete stop.

 

[sgregory124]

It is possible to use only the mechanical brakes, obviously, but, again, unless you're racing, no one in his right mind will do that when driving normally.

The recuperation statistics on my car show that between 10% and 30% of the energy used is being returned to the battery via braking/slowing-down on each journey, when driving in traffic around town.

Why would anyone deliberately turn-off this default setting? It will increase the cost of the journey, reduce the range causing the car to need more frequent charging, and unnecessarily wear the brakes.

It makes as much sense as saying that Diesel cars aren't frugal, because they can be driven on the motorway with the transmission limited to 3rd gear. Yes, it's possible to do that, but it's unlikely that anyone will actually choose to drive like that on daily basis....

I personally would have wanted to turn off regen because I didn't like the way the car drove with it on - I still don't. Sure I might get used to it, but the chances of me buying any kind of EV out of choice any time soon are extremely limited so its a moot point really. EV's serve a purpose, which is nothing more than a means of getting from A to B in as an anodyne way as possible - which unfortunately doesn't suit all drivers.

 

[markjay]

I personally would have wanted to turn off regen because I didn't like the way the car drove with it on - I still don't. Sure I might get used to it, but the chances of me buying any kind of EV out of choice any time soon are extremely limited so its a moot point really. EV's serve a purpose, which is nothing more than a means of getting from A to B in as an anodyne way as possible - which unfortunately doesn't suit all drivers.

With respect, I think you are confusing two separate issues.

When the car brakes, you can't tell if it's using the motors or the mechanical brakes, because from the driver's perspective it feels exactly the same.

What you are referring to is as the level of regenerative braking is not the division of braking force between motor and discs.

The setting that you are referring to, is how the car behaves when you lift the foot of the accelerator. With 0 regen, the car will continue coasting until you hit the brake pedal. With max regen (also known as one-pedal mode), the car will brake fully as soon as you lift the foot of the accelerator. In 'auto' settings, the computer decides how much braking to apply, which depends on input such as the condition of the road and traffic ahead of you.

Regen is good for economic driving. That said, if you don't like the 'EV-feel', you can turn it off and the car will only start slowing down when you actually hit the brake pedal. But, again, you will not be able to tell if the car is braking using the motors or using the discs.

 

[John N]

EVs may not be for you, and that's absolutely fine, but - out of curiosity - which part in the video put you off EVs?

No comment at this time as I may incriminate myself!

 

[ML350mgr]

The below is an interersting read for those who were wondering what drivers are to expect over the next years (perhaps just a confirmation).

It's taken from TFL's 'next-steps-for-reducing-emissions-from-road-transport' (available online) and sets the stage for road charging and possibly its time scale.

I've read all 4 approaches and, as I undertand it, Approach 1 to 3 clearly mention 'non-compliant vehicles' whereas Approach 4 doesn't. Everything points in the same direction, i.e. everyone will pay do drive in London. I'd expect the same to happen in other cities to follow suit after that.

What's concerning it's the following: 'This charge level means that the overall charge per trip is higher than the other three approaches, even for the shortest journeys.' As I understand it, trips will cost more than £12.5/day. Trips not 24h of driving!

The time scale for Approach 1 is bang on and I'd think 2025/26 will be too.

 

[TeddyRuxpin]

So there would need to be cameras every 1km or less, to cover all trips? Compulsory black boxes?

And that suggests that all ICE vehicles will be taxed in 2023?

 

[Ted]

Just caught up with this thread.
If there were no regenerative braking then the car would freewheel , and most I would think would find this unnatural - and might even lead to more brake wear.
‘normal’ regen makes the car feel much more natural on the overrun.

 

[markjay]

The below is an interersting read for those who were wondering what drivers are to expect over the next years (perhaps just a confirmation).

It's taken from TFL's 'next-steps-for-reducing-emissions-from-road-transport' (available online) and sets the stage for road charging and possibly its time scale.

I've read all 4 approaches and, as I undertand it, Approach 1 to 3 clearly mention 'non-compliant vehicles' whereas Approach 4 doesn't. Everything points in the same direction, i.e. everyone will pay do drive in London. I'd expect the same to happen in other cities to follow suit after that.

What's concerning it's the following: 'This charge level means that the overall charge per trip is higher than the other three approaches, even for the shortest journeys.' As I understand it, trips will cost more than £12.5/day. Trips not 24h of driving!

The time scale for Approach 1 is bang on and I'd think 2025/26 will be too.

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From here:

Transport Statistics Great Britain: 2021

www.gov.uk

The trend for car usage is clear, unfortunately... and there's a limit to our ability to build more roads and widen existing ones, and definitely inside cities this is not an option unless we demolish houses... so it does seem that per-mile road charging is the only practical way forward.

 

[ALFAitalia]

So there would need to be cameras every 1km or less, to cover all trips? Compulsory black boxes?

And that suggests that all ICE vehicles will be taxed in 2023?

That was decided at the last budget was it not?

 

[ML350mgr]

So there would need to be cameras every 1km or less, to cover all trips? Compulsory black boxes?

And that suggests that all ICE vehicles will be taxed in 2023?

I guess there'll be 'enough' cameras to cover most journeys.

I expect some drivers can get away with not being caught by the Ulez (current and expanded) as the cameras are not everywhere, but that comes down to luck. RAC reported that last year TFL made £90m! They may not have charged 100% of all the trips but it's still a pretty big number to me (and TFL can buy more camera with that money).

Ulez/CC are helping putting up the required infrastructure.

 

[markjay]

Just caught up with this thread.
If there were no regenerative braking then the car would freewheel , and most I would think would find this unnatural - and might even lead to more brake wear.
‘normal’ regen makes the car feel much more natural on the overrun.

True. Though, some do set the regen to '0' and let the car 'freewheel', because they like it this way.

In this scenario, the regen braking will only occur once the brake pedal is actually depressed.

 

[ML350mgr]

From here:

Transport Statistics Great Britain: 2021

www.gov.uk

The trend for car usage is clear, unfortunately... and there's a limit to our ability to build more roads and widen existing ones, and definitely inside cities this is not an option unless we demolish houses... so it does seem that per-mile road charging is the only practical way forward.

I'd think that 'dip' was caused by the pandemic though.

 

[markjay]

I guess there'll be 'enough' cameras to cover most journeys.

I expect some drivers can get away with not being caught by the Ulez (current and expanded) as the cameras are not everywhere, but that comes down to luck. RAC reported that last year TFL made £90m! They may not have charged 100% of all the trips but it's still a pretty big number to me (and TFL can buy more camera with that money).

Ulez/CC are helping putting up the required infrastructure.

As more people have cars, road use is becoming a scarce resource. And as scarcity goes up, so does the cost....

 

[markjay]

I'd think that 'dip' was caused by the pandemic though.

Yes - ignoring the 'dip', the trend is upwards, which is not sustainable.

 

[st13phil]

Yes - ignoring the 'dip', the trend is upwards, which is not sustainable.

Regardless of whether further growth is sustainable or not, prior to the enforced pandemic drop it accounted for between 7 and 8 times the number of passenger kilometres as railways, and around 20 times that of buses & coaches.

There has to be some realism here: you cannot eliminate that volume of movement without crippling the economy.