Stop expanding the ULEZ to all the London boroughs in 2023

[st13phil]

I personally think that road charging based on vehicle type, miles driven, location, and time-of-day, is the only fair alternative to VED, going forward.

It may be a fair alternative, but it's also the most intrusive as it relies upon journey tracking and therefore has enormous potential for scope creep.

 

[ML350mgr]

It may be a fair alternative, but it's also the most intrusive as it relies upon journey tracking and therefore has enormous potential for scope creep.

I'll wait and see whether I can call it 'fair'.

I expect it to be 'engineered' in a way that raises a lot of £, doesn't give many alternatives and promotes the use of EVs like the current scheme.

The tracking side of it is quite concerning.

 

[Fastcar155]

It won't make a difference. The fact that they charge drivers based on how old their car is (Euro4/6 etc) and not on the actual pollution emitted, it's a clear indicator that this is a revenue generator sold for being something else.

Not only that, the Ulez is the pathway to road charging (the Mayor confirmed on the Guardian recently it's coming) and they need as many cameras as possible. Everyone will have to pay eventually.

I could go on forever listing all the reasons why I think this scheme is flawed, but to me it doens't pass the 'common sense' check and therefore I don't support it in the way it's been implemented (forced on people).

The challenge people face now is not only what car to buy, but also how do I avoid being the same situation in 2-3 year's time (maybe less).

There is still plenty that can change after August 2023:

• require that all petrol vehicles are Euro6
• require that all petrol/diesel vehicles are Euro7 when it comes out in a few years
• ZEZ (Zero Emission Zones) are in the pipeline
• etc...

View attachment 134839

Hi , Will the Euro 7 standard happen ! In the EU the cost is the problem

 

[ML350mgr]

Hi , Will the Euro 7 standard happen ! In the EU the cost is the problem

I wish I had a crystal ball but if they come up with new ways of charging people (see below), they'll make it happen whether it's an EU rule or not.

The below suits perfectly EVs, no tailpipe emissions but dust/particulate from brakes/tyres!

Commission proposes new Euro 7 standards to reduce pollutant emissions from vehicles and improve air quality

Today, the Commission presented a proposal to reduce air pollution from new motor vehicles sold in the EU to meet the European Green Deal's zero-pollution ambition, while keeping vehicles affordable for consumers and promoting Europe's competitiveness.

ec.europa.eu

 

[markjay]

It may be a fair alternative, but it's also the most intrusive as it relies upon journey tracking and therefore has enormous potential for scope creep.

True, and this was also one of the key arguments against the introduction of the London Congestion Charge at the time.

But ultimately, it's going to be difficult to ensure a fair allocation of costs without knowing exactly what people are doing and how they use their vehicles.

 

[markjay]

I'll wait and see whether I can call it 'fair'.

I expect it to be 'engineered' in a way that raises a lot of £, doesn't give many alternatives and promotes the use of EVs like the current scheme.

The tracking side of it is quite concerning.

I would argue the road charging is probably the only way to tax EVs, given that EVs and Hybrid cars can be charged at home from the same electric circuit used for lights and power sockets, and therefore it is not really possible to tax their 'fuel' in the same way that petrol and Diesel are currently taxed at the pump (i.e. at around £1.20 per litre at current).

 

[markjay]

I wish I had a crystal ball but if they come up with new ways of charging people (see below), they'll make it happen whether it's an EU rule or not.

The below suits perfectly EVs, no tailpipe emissions but dust/particulate from brakes/tyres!

View attachment 134848

Commission proposes new Euro 7 standards to reduce pollutant emissions from vehicles and improve air quality

Today, the Commission presented a proposal to reduce air pollution from new motor vehicles sold in the EU to meet the European Green Deal's zero-pollution ambition, while keeping vehicles affordable for consumers and promoting Europe's competitiveness.

ec.europa.eu

Modern EV do not use the mechanical brakes for normal slowing down or stopping, instead they brake via recuperation, and so their discs and pads get very little use and hardly wear. Tyres are indeed an issue especially given that EVs are heavier due to the weight of the battery. However, overall, EVs create far less local pollution than ICE cars.

Global pollution is a different matter, and ultimately, no form of powered personal transport will ever be green - the only solution to the issue of pollution from private vehicles is for people to have less cars, and drive them less.

 

[sgregory124]

Modern EV do not use the mechanical brakes for normal slowing down or stopping, instead they brake via recuperation, and so their discs and pads get very little use and hardly wear. Tyres are indeed an issue especially given that EVs are heavier due to the weight of the battery. However, overall, EVs create far less local pollution than ICE cars.

Global pollution is a different matter, and ultimately, no form of powered personal transport will ever be green - the only solution to the issue of pollution from private vehicles is for people to have less cars, and drive them less.

They don't use regeneration for braking alone - they still use traditional discs and pads? If they were solely using regen, drivers would have to predict every braking point and let of the power in advance......

 

[markjay]

They don't use regeneration for braking alone - they still use traditional discs and pads? If they were solely using regen, drivers would have to predict every braking point and let of the power in advance......

The brake pedal is 'brake-by-wire', i.e. the computer decides how the brakes are applied (recuperation of mechanical).

The mechanical brakes (pads and discs) are used for emergency braking. And, they'll be used mildly every number of brake cycles in order to ensure that the mating surfaces remain clean and the discs remain rust free.

The discs and brakes on modern EVs are considered 'good for the life of the car' and are not regarded as service items.

Of course this won't apply to racing etc, only to normal driving conditions.

 

[ChipChop]

EV's still use ABS braking systems / ESP systems which would automatically trigger traditional pad against disc braking if regen braking was selected in less than optimum weather conditions. Snow, ice , potholes, heavy rain, mud on the road etc etc. Everyday driving in the UK some would say.

 

[markjay]

EV's still use ABS braking systems / ESP systems which would automatically trigger traditional pad against disc braking if regen braking was selected in less than optimum weather conditions. Snow, ice , potholes, mud on the road etc etc. Everyday driving in the UK.

Possibly, but still hardly a significant factor in brake wear. As said, the discs and pads on modern EVs are expected to last the life of the car. Compare that with an ICE car, and you'll see why the brake particles pollution from EVs is really not an issue here.

 

[ChipChop]

Possibly, but still hardly a significant factor in brake wear. As said, the discs and pads on modern EVs are expected to last the life of the car. Compare that with an ICE car, and you'll see why the brake particles pollution from EVs is really not an issue here.

Sounds like the same guff as gearboxes being sealed for life.

Just because you are not touching the brake pedal does not mean the brakes are not being automatically applied, possibly frequently. Torque vectoring may be another factor to consider in EV's with 100% of the available torque from standstill. Is that not controlled by independent 4 corner braking ESP type systems?

 

[markjay]

Sounds like the same guff as gearboxes being sealed for life.

Just because you are not touching the brake pedal does not mean the brakes are not being automatically applied, possibly frequently. Torque vectoring may be another factor to consider in EV's with 100% of the available torque from standstill. Is that not controlled by independent 4 corner braking ESP type systems?

The theories are fine, but don't argue with me... just Google it. Discs and pads on modern EV simply don't wear.

 

[ChipChop]

The theories are fine, but don't argue with me... just Google it. Discs and pads on modern EV simply don't wear.

EV's as motorings latest panacea is far from the reality.

Here is a YT video of a Fiat 500 EV being driven on snow and ice. Regen braking on means abs triggered. Abs triggered means pads contacting discs, Brake wear.

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[PXW]

On the road charging issue, I agree that the government clearly does need to fill the revenue hole that will be left from fuel duty. But I am irritated that we are not looking beyond motoring as a source of that revenue. Fuel duty raises far more than is ever spent on transport, so in substance is just general taxation, presented in an eco wrapper. As a tax it works well, because road fuel demand is relatively inelastic (but by the same token it is relatively ineffective as an eco lever).

We therefore have the opportunity as a society to choose to raise that revenue in other ways without incurring the huge cost of road pricing infrastructure and the state surveillance implications of that. In fact, we already have perfectly good revenue raising mechanisms in the form of income and value added tax, for example. I’m not saying those are the answer (and there would be significant political implications) but surely we should at least have the debate before diving into road pricing? To be losing a form of revenue that happens to be transport based and then to look just at transport to replace it is lazy policy thinking, in my view.

 

[st13phil]

We therefore have the opportunity as a society to choose to raise that revenue in other ways without incurring the huge cost of road pricing infrastructure and the state surveillance implications of that. In fact, we already have perfectly good revenue raising mechanisms in the form of income and value added tax, for example. I’m not saying those are the answer (and there would be significant political implications) but surely we should at least have the debate before diving into road pricing? To be losing a form of revenue that happens to be transport based and then to look just at transport to replace it is lazy policy thinking, in my view.

Thank you for articulating my own thoughts on the matter.

My take on it is that the general public are "used to" the taxation of road transport and have no real idea as to the proportion of the revenue raised that is truly just general taxation. As such, the easy - and as you correctly identify - lazy option is to simply find a way to perpetuate that form of taxation. There is also the issue of how to deal equitably (ha ha!) with the transition period when some road users are using EV's that don't attract taxation on their fuel while there are others who use ICE vehicles that do.

However, it's abundantly clear that there is unlikely to ever be sufficient materials available globally to replace all current ICE-powered personal transport with battery-powered equivalents (let alone be in a position to generate and distribute sufficient electrical energy to support recharging of such a large parc of private vehicles), so what then?

Road pricing is a lazy, intrusive, way of perpetuating a form of taxation that has, imo, little justification and obviously limited future applicability in terms of ability to equitably raise revenue.

 

[John N]

EV's as motorings latest panacea is far from the reality.

Here is a YT video of a Fiat 500 EV being driven on snow and ice. Regen braking on means abs triggered. Abs triggered means pads contacting discs, Brake wear.

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Well, I was sceptical about EV's in general, that Video has re-enforced my gut feeling that dipping my toe in the EV Pond is definitely NOT for me!

 

[markjay]

EV's as motorings latest panacea is far from the reality.

Here is a YT video of a Fiat 500 EV being driven on snow and ice. Regen braking on means abs triggered. Abs triggered means pads contacting discs, Brake wear.

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Even so, the discs and pads will still outlast the life of the car... easily. And, the relevant point to this thread is that modern EV's particle pollution from brakes, pales in comparison to that of ICE cars.

However, I do agree with your point that EVs are not a panacea - in my, view, again, no form of powered personal transport will ever be environmentally friendly, when looking at overall 'cradle-to-grave' life cycle - as I keep saying, we should all have fewer cars, and drive them less, starting with those of us who are living and working in cities and other urban areas.

 

[st13phil]

as I keep saying, we should all have fewer cars, and drive them less, starting with those of us who are living and working in cities and other urban areas.

Whether I agree with that position or not, it speaks to my comments about road pricing as a taxation model in my post above.

If "those of us who are living and working in cities and other urban areas" do reduce their personal car use then logically the amount of revenue raised from their moving about will also reduce, so the question is "how is that revenue replaced"?

The easy answer - that is already the one proposed - will be either an increase in general taxation, or a further burden on road-use taxation (fuel duty or road pricing), or a combination of both. This will have the effect of shifting the tax burden away from those living & working in cities and urban areas to those who do not. Is that equitable?

 

[sgregory124]

The brake pedal is 'brake-by-wire', i.e. the computer decides how the brakes are applied (recuperation of mechanical).

The mechanical brakes (pads and discs) are used for emergency braking. And, they'll be used mildly every number of brake cycles in order to ensure that the mating surfaces remain clean and the discs remain rust free.

The discs and brakes on modern EVs are considered 'good for the life of the car' and are not regarded as service items.

Of course this won't apply to racing etc, only to normal driving conditions.

Sorry but I don't buy into that. The Tesla I drove (P85D) owned by a friend of mine had the ability to switch off regen braking altogether, so the articles you've read would appear to be incorrect on that front.