Thames Valley Police - 'Speed Awareness' course thresholds

[Pringles]

My issue with these courses is that you can't fail them which rather defeats the object in my view. I would be quite happy if the course revealed a rubbish driver for them to have their driving licence revoked. I speak as a parent whose daughter was knocked off her bike earlier this year at Easter by a driver who was definitely doing more than 30 in a 30 limit.

I don't wish to sound like some sort of preacher but I have not picked up a ticket ever and I do like to put my foot down in a car designed for it. However I choose safe roads at safe times and that does not tend to equate to speed cameras -fixed or mobile being present.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Since when does breaking the law contradict civil liberties?

Certainly making a law restricts liberties and the freedom to do whateveryouwant.

The balance between the social good and the freedom of the individual should be the basis for any law.

I guess to put it simply, breaking a law is putting the desire of the individual above the benefit of everyone else?

When making the law (or setting precidents) there will be exceptions identified where the balance is being found, but its still the balance.

The kid who drives through our village at 60mph is putting his desire above the interests of everyone else.


I don't actually believe speed enforcement is a form of taxation, but wouldn't really have a problem if it were - tax avoidance would be fairly simple for a start.

Do speed awareness courses make any difference? I think education should be prefered to enforcement, and if given the opportunity drivers don't want to change their behaviour, hey-ho, they only get one chance.

I do think knocking on the door of an unsuspecting family to break the news that a loved one has died is the kind of sobering experience that would slow down a few folks.

I say "Bring Politics into Policing!" - then, like in the US, we would have cops raising revenue we could use to repair the roof on our village hall - and it would be that spotty yoof paying for it.

 

[st13phil]

<< snip some good stuff >>

Do speed awareness courses make any difference? I think education should be prefered to enforcement, and if given the opportunity drivers don't want to change their behaviour, hey-ho, they only get one chance.

I think education is preferable to enforcement too, but I do think that it's slightly perverse that the schemes all run on an education or punishment basis where the real p*ss takers (who would, presumably, benefit most from education) just get punishment rather than punishment and education.

 

[Swiss Toni]

I think education is preferable to enforcement too, but I do think that it's slightly perverse that the schemes all run on an education or punishment basis where the real p*ss takers (who would, presumably, benefit most from education) just get punishment rather than punishment and education.

I guess the cops can always use ther "Section 59" powers (which allow them to give a notice to any driver using a vehicle in an anti-social manner, such that if the same driver or same car is stopped again, it gets seized) are always an option for anyone over the limit and causing worry to local residents - the law was intended (and is used to good effect!) with boy-racers, but if a case goes to court it is for the Magistrate to work our whether a speed awareness course would be a better bet than a fine, but oddly, can not impose both....

 

[st13phil]

...but if a case goes to court it is for the Magistrate to work our whether a speed awareness course would be a better bet than a fine, but oddly, can not impose both....

That's the perverse bit. Mandating that a driver undertakes further training should, in my view, be an option as part of the punishment process and should be thought of as in addition to where the case merits it rather than instead of.

 

[Smarty]

I must say, speed limits are put in place for a reason. They are and will be enforced one way or another, at the moment the mobile van routes are advertised, the static cameras are, just that, static.. the motoris does have a fighting chance of doing as they should do by obeying the signs.

...but, what could the next step be? satellite links to each and every car? little black boxes that tell all, not just speeding? Maybe we should be grateful that we are driving now and not in the future decades?

Smarty

 

[Baron_Samedi]

Mobile Camera and sites of community concern used to be identified by Wiltshire and Somerset Authorities but this has not been so for a number of years....

 

[jonnyboy]

the thing that infuriates me personally more than anything with this thread is the letter i received this morning, a "further steps notice" from Oxfordshire central fines payment office.

see this thread for details as I dont want to hijack this one:-


http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/gene...s-what-i-can-do-about-problem.html#post804356

 

[LimitedSlip]

I must say, speed limits are put in place for a reason.

Of course, isn't everything? Question is, are they genuine reasons? When will we stop taking this?

50 wasn't slow enough on some roads. Then 40, then 30. Now many are 20. Where does it end? Perfectly valid, workable and safe limits that stood for decades are being reduced to stupid levels that do nothing except criminalize what was previously accepted as normal driving. That and mass control of the population's travel, movement and ultimate productivity, and a little funding in the form of fines to further it all.

...but, what could the next step be? satellite links to each and every car? little black boxes that tell all, not just speeding? Maybe we should be grateful that we are driving now and not in the future decades?

Could? Old hat I'm afraid, already planned years ago. The Galileo satellite system already posesses the capability to track all European vehicles. This will enable road charging, speed and parking enforcement, total monitoring of anything related to vehicular movement that those pulling the strings desire. Helpful navigation for the masses it aint about.

Road charging by specific vehicle tracking is already in operation in places, Portugal for one. Trials are ongoing in other parts: USA for pay-as-you-drive insurance.

You can bet your bottom dollar on this; You will pay more and you will get less freedom. Wait for punitive charges on the "environmentally damaging effects" of pleasure/non-essential private mileage. It's coming. The environment and safety garb is used because it's the easiest to make most people believe... until it's too late to matter.

Enjoy your driving everyone... this is the tail end of the Golden Age.

 

[MrT]

By giving drivers points you can only tax fine them four times but with this new system you can keep on taxing fining them and employ more civil servants. A government win-win.

Not quite.

Once you have attended a Speed Awareness Course you are not allowed to do another for a minimum of 3 years.

Speed Awareness Course - No Penalty Points (UK)

 

[flango]

Mobile Camera and sites of community concern used to be identified by Wiltshire and Somerset Authorities but this has not been so for a number of years....

All UK Mobile camera sites are carefully audited before a camera is put into operation and there are several factors listed below that they must comply to.

At least 4 KSI per km in last three calendar years (not per annum)
At least 8 PIA per km in last three calendar years
Causation factors indicate that speeding was a contributory factor in some or all of the accidents – sites that are clearly not speed-related have been de-selected
85th percentile speed at least 10% above speed limit plus 2mph - i.e. 35mph in a 30 zone) for free-flowing traffic (excluding any rush-hour periods)
At least 20% of drivers are exceeding the speed limit

Once identified the sites have to be published this is where the speed camera databases get their information from for mobiles.

The only exception to this is ad-hoc speed enforcement where a member of the public may have complained about speed related issues, normally a traffic unit with handheld laser will be dispatched to have the first look see, if it is a problem then they will locate a van on there to try and eliminate the problem. These sites do not have to be published.

 

[G.O'Rilla]

Thanks for that. My one ticket (94mph on A14 - mobile camera van on bridge) has had a distinct effect on my driving and now make much more effort to stick to the limits. I won't say that I do all the time (no-one can honestly put their hand up and say they do) but the 3 points and £60, just avoiding court and a big fine certainly had the exact effect a speed awareness course would have had.

Irrespective of any thoughts about dubious camera positions, the fact is if you're caught speeding, you're breaking the law.

Try driving around Hamburg or Zurich (two recent unpleasant experiences):

Hamburg they even have cameras on motorway exit slips to catch people ignoring the 60kmh signs on the bends. Zurich they are slim devices mounted higher up and very hard to spot - 3kmh over=fine. All camouflage grey.
Geneva they have a much better attitude - some of them are painted in black and white cow colours or emmental cheese colours

I'll never complain again about UK cameras - at least they are visible

 

[BTB 500]

All UK Mobile camera sites are carefully audited before a camera is put into operation and there are several factors listed below that they must comply to.

At least 4 KSI per km in last three calendar years (not per annum)
At least 8 PIA per km in last three calendar years
Causation factors indicate that speeding was a contributory factor in some or all of the accidents – sites that are clearly not speed-related have been de-selected

Obviously anything is possible, but I would be very surprised indeed if the spot where Mrs BTB got caught meets those criteria. It's a short section of straight dual carriageway (40 limit), with a roundabout at each end. I've been driving that stretch of road for over 20 years and have never seen a single accident of any description, nor have I ever heard of one.

On the other hand, going the other way (A320, Coral Reef roundabout to the Ascot turnoff roundabout) the same road is unrestricted and quite fast ... and I've seen accidents fairly often.

So I wonder how location-specific the accident stats. are.

 

[jonnyboy]

Obviously anything is possible, but I would be very surprised indeed if the spot where Mrs BTB got caught meets those criteria. It's a short section of straight dual carriageway (40 limit), with a roundabout at each end. I've been driving that stretch of road for over 20 years and have never seen a single accident of any description, nor have I ever heard of one.

On the other hand, going the other way (A320, Coral Reef roundabout to the Ascot turnoff roundabout) the same road is unrestricted and quite fast ... and I've seen accidents fairly often.

So I wonder how location-specific the accident stats. are.

I'm with you there, Bill.

Shocking bit of road that

 

[Sp!ke]

All UK Mobile camera sites are carefully audited before a camera is put into operation and there are several factors listed below that they must comply to.

At least 4 KSI per km in last three calendar years (not per annum)
At least 8 PIA per km in last three calendar years
Causation factors indicate that speeding was a contributory factor in some or all of the accidents – sites that are clearly not speed-related have been de-selected
85th percentile speed at least 10% above speed limit plus 2mph - i.e. 35mph in a 30 zone) for free-flowing traffic (excluding any rush-hour periods)
At least 20% of drivers are exceeding the speed limit

You actually believe this is true? My personal experience is that figures are massaged to suit the percentage of a large number of cameras and safety appears very unlikely to be the primary motive.

 

[ckember]

plus the increase in co2 emissions. when the new 20mph zones come in more c02 poorer mpg and more speeding fines.

 

[Big Nige]

We went down the M3 yesterday and encountered 2 lots of 50mph limits, nobody working in either set of roadworks...of course and yet...and yet the powers that be see fit to set up umpteen numbers of Average speed cameras at £30,000 a pop!
I tells ya, don't bother with the cameras and use the bloody money to employ more people to get the job done quicker - how freakin' hard can that be to work out?

And the problem with reduced limits is that it also bunches everyone up, so when the limit is over you still can't get a move on and oh look, lo and behold, 2 miles later is a another 50mph limited set of roadworks with NOBODY working.

And the Dartford bridge yesterday...oh my God - tailbacks to jct 27!!
All caused by the stupid toll they "have" to collect.

I'm of a mind that the disruption caused by the bridge/tunnel is bordering on an infringment of Human Rights and I'm basing on the fact that;

- You can't get out of the queues once you're in them (kettleing anyone?) and
- The queues are caused by the slow down needed to take money off you (and so are deliberate, not accidental) ...which, if I'm not mistaken is sometimes referred to as kidnapping.

I am going to write to the Tunnel Authority on that basis and see what response I get.

 

[Gasump]

speed awareness...........

Well, this thread has certainly, inevitably, stirred up a whole range of issues, but I'll stick (fairly closely) to the original.

I attended one in north Oxon earlier in the year, prepared for the worst, but the 'instructor' was sensible, non-judgmental, and pragmatic and, all in all, I found it a fairly useful experience.

He passed on some useful tips on keeping to speeds without undue concentration on the speedo, and made some thought provoking points. One in particular I remember as a parent and grandparent.

In common with most people, I presume, I'm reasonably well aware of increased stopping distances with speed, but never really thought about 'impact' speed. A film they showed highlighted the fact that an increase from 30 mph to 40 mph (at a given point) would increase the impact speed from about 5 mph to just over 20 mph. This could increase the damage done to a 'careless child' from a minor injury to a far more serious one, or even death.

Just that one different way of thinking about my driving/speed made it worthwhile in my view - and the saved three points!

And on the speed camera issue; reporting to the local police to give my details after being 'flashed' they told me they had advised the limit be set at 40mph but the local council had insisted it be set to 30mph. Presumably to get more revenue.

But it all ended well. A couple of weeks later some thoughtful soul rammed his car into the camera and then set light to the whole thing! When I got the summons/plead form I opted to go to court. Of course that was the last I heard as they wouldn't have been able to produce the neccesary evidence on the correct working of the camera!