The Complete M272 Engine Thread

[MancMike]

@Grober, just curious, as his engine number is above that where the gear is the issue in the list from R2D2, so are those figures not totally accurate then?

I have an M272 too so I've a vested interest.

 

[grober]

Applicable Models (Not Applicable to Model 164.156, 204 or 216.386): Equipped with M272 Engine Up to
Serial No. 2729..30 468993 or M273 Engine Up to Serial No. 2739..30 088611.
The material for the balance shaft sprocket and the timing chain guide wheel (idler) was modified on
engines past the serial numbers listed above.

Is my serial number not past this?

You are correct- which might indicate you simply have a stretched timing chain??? despite having the DTC codes for scenario one. How many miles has the engine done- even these "improved" sprockets may eventually wear at high mileage or with poor oil change history [ this is speculation on my part you understand but timing gear does eventually wear out on the best of engines] . In the end the only sure way to find out is probably to strip the front timing case and inspect the timing gear. I take it your engine warning light is coming on? May be worth repeating the test as recommended by that MB pdf -- clear the fault codes then run the engine again---- if the fault comes back immediately then you almost certainly have a timing gear problem.
What is your specialist saying???

 

[Sprocket1]

Car is currently at 88000 miles. When i checked the MOT test certificate, it says car engine light on around 77500. I asked the the dealer about this and he said it was a faulty sensor and he gave me an invoice from Mercedes which says 10070233 MAGNET Qty 2 Unit Price £17.50 Net Total £31.50. And so far no engine light.

Fault codes were cleared by specialist, fault codes came back immediately after test drive.

I think i need to get the specialist to strip the front timing case and inspect the timing gear.

Thank you so much for getting back to me.

 

[grober]

What does your Merc specialist say?

 

[grober]

These are complex engines with many things that can go wrong with the timing gear.
First there's the basic timing gear itself-- timing chain, tensioner, guides , sprockets all of which can wear.
then there's
the electromagnet camshaft adjusters - one for each of the 4 camshafts
then
there's the camshaft position sensors again one for each camshaft.

The camshaft position sensors can go wrong- and throw up codes POO12 seems common--- they can be replaced relatively easily- however there appears to be a cheaper fix where the magnets only are replaced.
From your post
he gave me an invoice from Mercedes which says 10070233 MAGNET Qty 2 Unit Price £17.50 Net Total £31.50.!!!!!!

it sounds as if 2 of these magnets were replaced on the left bank ??-----perhaps the fault codes which refer to the right bank are being generated by the sensors on the right bank? It would be a relatively cheap fix if this was the case?

This is the dilema with cars with complex electronics -- are the sensors indicating a real mechanical problem? or are the sensors themselves faulty.

more details here

P0016 & P0017 Camshaft Position Sensor Location - Please help! - MBWorld.org Forums

and here

P0012 - Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Retarded (Bank 1) - MBWorld.org Forums

 

[Sprocket1]

What does your Merc specialist say?

Merc specialist just sent me a quote of £2800.00 after they looked at the codes from the star diagnostic machine.

I will call up the specialist today and ask to remove the timing cover and see if it needs a new timing gear as you suggested.

 

[Sprocket1]

Spw Mercedes specialist and they say to remove the timing cover it is an engine out job.

The other option is to remove the rocker or oil sump cover to see if they can get in from there. Quoted me £400.00 for 2.5 hours labour.

 

[grober]

I am getting slightly concerned now. Not saying what they say isn't true but why did they not tell you this right away ? [ maybe they did?] I can't see how they can assess/visualise the timing gear adequately without removing the timing case. Certainly unlikely from the sump or cam cover. I think you have to be quite blunt about it and ask them exactly how many of these engines with this problem have they ever repaired?
Not casting aspersions here since I don't know them but there are many garages out there purporting to be "Mercedes Specialists" . While in the main they are perfectly competent to service these vehicles rebuilding a Mercedes engine's timing gear requires engineering skills of a higher level . Just make sure your specialist has the adequate experience for both your sakes.

 

[Sprocket1]

I am getting slightly concerned now. Not saying what they say isn't true but why did they not tell you this right away ? [ maybe they did?] I can't see how they can assess/visualise the timing gear adequately without removing the timing case. Certainly unlikely from the sump or cam cover. I think you have to be quite blunt about it and ask them exactly how many of these engines with this problem have they ever repaired?
Not casting aspersions here since I don't know them but there are many garages out there purporting to be "Mercedes Specialists" . While in the main they are perfectly competent to service these vehicles rebuilding a Mercedes engine's timing gear requires engineering skills of a higher level . Just make sure your specialist has the adequate experience for both your sakes.

I sent the Mercedes specialist this youtube link to watch as it shows another way of checking whether the balancer shaft is the problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xohSv1epRHU

After watching the video the Mercedes specialist e-mailed me back and this is what he says:

Hi There,

I managed to watch the video and it is interesting.

I watched it with one of my fellow Service Advisors who prior to doing his current job, spent 20 years as an MB Technician.
He was unaware of this method too.
This also lends weight to the point I made in relation to it being a ‘common problem’ as in those 20 years, he has never carried out this repair!
If it was as common as the internet makes out, I’m sure that he would have utilised this check at some point.

Also, a point made by the guy doing the video, at around 13 minutes, he refers to the oil pump being the cause of the problem. He then corrects this
By saying that the problem is actually caused by the owners using wrong or cheap oil. No reference to ‘common fault’. (he may mention this elsewhere. I was listening with a low volume)

My opinion is that this is the stance MB will make in that the oil change history cannot be proven for 70,000 miles + and for that reason, no contribution will be made.

If however, you would like us to carry out the diagnosis, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards,

 

[Sprocket1]

I have full service history of the vehicle of up to 65000 miles. I bought the car at 80000 miles.

 

[grober]

The early problem with the timing gears was evidently the use of inferior metal [ sintered?] gear wheels which was rectified later as detailed in the MB pdf.
What the guy was doing in the video was checking for excessive play in the timing gear. Pretty sure that's the way Mercedes recommend doing it. Doesn't tell you WHY its out of course-- worn/stretched chain or bad balancer shaft but would confirm there's a mechanical problem requiring further investigation.
This problem IS well known- there was an owners legal class action raised against MB about it in the States[ which failed by the way]
Its possibly not all MB techs would have come across it in the UK as M272 petrol engines are pretty rare on the ground here.
The more I hear the more I am inclined to think these guys are unfamiliar with this problem in this engine and it might be wise to go elsewhere.
We have an excellent MB tech on the forum BlackC55. I suggest you ask his advice by PM

 

[Sprocket1]

The early problem with the timing gears was evidently the use of inferior metal [ sintered?] gear wheels which was rectified later as detailed in the MB pdf.
What the guy was doing in the video was checking for excessive play in the timing gear. Pretty sure that's the way Mercedes recommend doing it. Doesn't tell you WHY its out of course-- worn/stretched chain or bad balancer shaft but would confirm there's a mechanical problem requiring further investigation.
This problem IS well known- there was an owners legal class action raised against MB about it in the States[ which failed by the way]
Its possibly not all MB techs would have come across it in the UK as M272 petrol engines are pretty rare on the ground here.
The more I hear the more I am inclined to think these guys are unfamiliar with this problem in this engine and it might be wise to go elsewhere.
We have an excellent MB tech on the forum BlackC55. I suggest you ask his advice by PM

If only the Mercedes specialist had watched the second part of the video from 5:05

(THIS ONE) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQeKWW2yzRw

There is no teeth MERCEDES WASSUP WID DAT HUH!! Make a lill better cars, don't make people err have to spend thousands of dollars on their cars.

Grober thank you so much for getting back to me and answering all my posts you really are a true MB Enthusiast.

I will definitely take your advice and look up BlackC55.

I wish you all the best in the future, i don't know you personally but getting ideas from you really helped.

I wish you all the best and keep doing the good works that you do.

 

[Hammer44]

Cls 320cdi

Morning guys

I am new to mercedes and looking to purchase a w219 model of the cls in the new year. I was loving the reads on them online. Seemed almost too good to be true how goodd everyone said they are. Then i see this thread, and now i cant stop searching and finding bad things about the M272 V6 block.

Any way i still need one in my life as i cant quite contain my excitment about it but i need to make sure i get the right one. So my question is. Can i simply avoid the problem altogether by going with a 320cdi? Was it just the diesel or petrol engines affected? Looking at the post and trying to make sense of all the models and numbers it looks like its just the 350 petrol and the 500 petroll. im seriously lost!!

Thanks again to you all for putting up with another newbie

 

[grober]

The M272 and is close relation the V8 both share the same timing gear design and 90 degree cylinder angle . The 90 degree V6 is inherently less well balanced than the V8--- it has to have stepped crank journals for example so maybe this is why you hear more about the v6 problems than the V8. You will glad to hear the V6 320 diesel has a different design of valve gear so does not appear to be affected .

 

[Hammer44]

Thanks Grober for your quick reply.

I was hoping as much. This is good news, although without trying to talk myself out of buying one a chap at my local garage mentioned a common bearing issue on the 320cdi. Im starting to think just buy what i fall in love with and deal with the problems later as none of them seem to be solid.

Bit of an after thought, does the 320cdi have a MB code name like M272?

 

[grober]

It's known as the OM 642 As usual the later versions of the engines tend to have most of the teething problems sorted during the production life of the engine as they come to light in service . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_OM642
A bonus in the UK is that more Mercedes mechanics are familiar with the V6 diesel engines simply because there are more about than in the USA where the reverse probably applies. Diesel engines are inherently more robust mechanically but can go wrong at high mileage if neglected. It tends to be the ancillary equipment concerned with exhaust gas recirculation for emissions that tends to clog up/fail but injectors can be a problem also. That's why its best to look for a car with a rock solid no expense spared service history as any such issues will have been dealt with as they occurred. These engines can do prodigeous miles provided they are looked after

 

[Hammer44]

Ok. Brilliant. Im going to have a good search tonight for some. Making double sure on that servcie history and general maintenance have been kept up. Top member by the way mate! Good to have some sound advice and clearly a wealth of knowledge Grober!

Cheers

 

[M.Khalid]

Hi Guys,

I am very concerned about my car since I have seen this topic…

I have bought yesterday a CLK 280 Sports Convertible 94,000 Miles 02/2006 with front bumper and front grill damaged (CAT D). Nothing else is damaged: Radiator in perfect condition (A/C works great), no Airbag deployed…
Although the engine management light is on, I asked the trader why the light was ON, he said it is probably because of the front side is damaged. I really doubt it because the front damage has nothing to do with the engine light.

When doing my VIN check I have noticed that my engine # is 272940 30 239114 which is a really bad news regarding this common gear problem. I have not diagnosed the car yet but I am fairly confident that I got this issue.

My question is: If I fix it, will it re-occur after a while or Mercedes will fix it for good?

Thanks everyone

 

[steve.65]

OK, I am yet another new guy who was vaguely aware of this problem but have now investigated further as I am now seriously looking at replacing my current vehicle. Specifically I'm looking at the W209 CLK350 (I'll take a 280 if my ideal spec turns up) as late as possible to avoid as many problems as possible. I've looked a t the VIN number list but obviously I won't be able to check anything until I actually go to look at a car unless I can convince potential sellers to give me that info over the phone. I guess my main question is 'did the final year/years avoid the problem or did it run right until the end of production 'and' does the next generation E class coupe with the CGI engine avoid these and/or other problems.

Sorry for all those questions but I am coming from a totally faultless, 14yr old in September BMW E46 330i that I've owned for 8 years and 40k of its 80k miles and I find that almost every car that I might consider as a replacement (including BMW) have all manner of potential engine issues. Modern vehicles don't appear to be designed/built as well as they once were.

Any advice shall be gratefully received
Cheers
Steve

 

[Codger49]

The VIN number list is the best information source available for the M272/3 engine issue, but I believe all 2008 and after builds are OK.

Rather than trying to get the exact engine number from a vendor, it may be easier to get hold of the VIN. You could then post it on this forum, where many members could get the detailed datacard info (inc engine number) for you.

PS I guess the same could apply to the gearbox TCU 'electroplate' issue, where the later VGS3 versions (2008? and after) don't have the failure rates of earlier versions.

PPS I have some sympathy for you - my E46 is now 14 yrs old, with me for 13 1/2 of them and now on 176k miles with only normal wear and tear issues arising.