The Hunt for the Simple Car.

[grober]

Skoda Diesel

Agreed John, I certainly would not want an ex rental ! A Skoda diesel seems to the closest fit to the "SIMPLE CAR" bearing in mind Dieselman's remarks about their injection system. Galvanised bodies as well. As many have remarked, strange that they are ranked so much higher in all the reliability surveys than the parent company VAG products. Things may change however since I have heard they are to open a factory in China. but production maybe only destined for the far east market???

 

[BonzoDog]

It is not just the risk of breakdown with non electronic cars, it is rare that the car is running at peak performance. This means higher costs, higher emissions and at times an irritatingly uncomfortable drive. I always reckoned, probably self delusion that no matter what happened, I coudl get teh car home. The problem is it did happen all too often.
However when it comes to mobile phones I have to agree, when is somebody going to produce a basic simple model that just makes calls?

 

[Dieselman]

Things may change however since I have heard they are to open a factory in China. but production maybe only destined for the far east market???

The Superb is the Chinese equivelant to the Passat. It has a stretched floorpan and longer rear doors.
I'm not sure whether the European versions are built in China but I think it is likely as it wouldn't be worth opening a new factory for the volumes when there is already a plant in operation.

Any manufacturer can have any car built to quality standards in any country, it's just a matter of setting sandards.

The Toyota Yaris is one of the most reliable and well built cars on the road and it's built in France..

 

[Dieselman]

I don't think you can avoid 'complications'. Car hire companies tend to buy reliable vehicles. What is the most common rent mobile?

They buy on price and don't worry about reliability because the car will be sold well before it goes out of warranty.

We used to rent about 1000-1200 vehicles from Avis and some of the cars were terrible. I personally got through three in one week and one staff had four in one day.
We blew up about 20 Peugeot 406 Td in the space of about two months due to faulty turbos.

 

[glojo]

They buy on price and don't worry about reliability because the car will be sold well before it goes out of warranty.

We used to rent about 1000-1200 vehicles from Avis and some of the cars were terrible. I personally got through three in one week and one staff had four in one day.
We blew up about 20 Peugeot 406 Td in the space of about two months due to faulty turbos.

Sorry for drifting off topic, I accept hire companies buy on price and yes you blew up 20 diesel Peugeots???? (I would love to know how ) I was given a diesel vehicle and I treated the throttle like an on or off switch. It was either to the metal, or on tick-over. I could not wreck the blooming thing.

Most manufacturers will offer huge discounts to rental companies, but it is a fool that deliberately, and knowingly buys a fleet of unreliable vehicles. Cars today are far, far more reliable than twenty or thirty years ago, hence my reference to British Leyland. No hire company would have remained in business if they ran these vehicles? We are clearly going to get into one of our... you say black, I say white conflicts, but I stand by what I say

A hire car that is off the road for three weeks waiting for a warranty repair is loosing the company wads of money. The warranty is nice, but time off the road is major dent in company profits. Sorry if I have failed to explain myself.

Regards,
John

 

[Dieselman]

Sorry for drifting off topic, I accept hire companies buy on price and yes you blew up 20 diesel Peugeots???? (I would love to know how ) I was given a diesel vehicle and I treated the throttle like an on or off switch. It was either to the metal, or on tick-over. I could not wreck the blooming thing.

A hire car that is off the road for three weeks waiting for a warranty repair is loosing the company wads of money. The warranty is nice, but time off the road is major dent in company profits. Sorry if I have failed to explain myself.

Regards,
John

I had a faulty Mondeo and two faulty Vecrtra SRi on one week.

The Peugeots had faulty turbos so oil passed into the intake and the engine ran on the oil. The engines revved upto about 10,000 revs and couldn't be shut down with the key as they were running on engine oil.
They last about 30 seconds like this.

I work from the same offices as National/Alamo car rental head office and some of our staff used to work for them and vice versa.
The reliability issue doesn't appear to be a concern as they have additional vehicles so just rent out another.
Remember the vehicles don't actually cost them anything as they often sell them for more than they pay in the first place due to the massive discounts they recieve for being tied to a manufacturer. Some major companies recieve these as well for example BT used to buy vans at 50% discount.

At the moment National are using GM vehicles but have previously used Ford and Mercedes.
These are the cars that people buy when they are buying a MB management car. No rental companies display the rental company name on the V5 so when sold they don't appear to be rentals.

 

[glojo]

The Peugeots had faulty turbos so oil passed into the intake and the engine ran on the oil. The engines revved upto about 10,000 revs and couldn't be shut down with the key as they were running on engine oil. They last about 30 seconds like this..

10,000 revs on a diesel!! No wonder they died. Was this engine common throughout the whole range of Peugeot powered vehicles? Did both Ford and Volvo use this engine.

I understand the rest of your post and thanks for the update.

Have a nice week-end,

Kind regards,
John

 

[Tiff]

Not just Peugeots that do this..also seen it on the Vauxhall DTi engines too..which have a liking for fuel pumps...at 2 grand a time...They also drink oil..don't get checked...then sieze.

 

[grober]

Are modern mercedes bulletproof?-the AK47 example.

John, I would have to agree with you. Modern cars definitely have the potential to be more reliable than older models in the main. The point I was trying to make was that in the search for new customers/ market share and possibly due to the undue influence of car electronics manufacturers (Messrs Bosch et al) car designers have perhaps made their newest models too complex and reliability/repairability has suffered. The basic principles of car design have been compromised in the process. For me that means a car MUST start and run cleanly every time. Its systems should have built in redundancy/ repair ability in case of component failure and in the main be capable of action independent of the operational state of other systems in the car. These principles have been somewhat compromised with the current integrated systems I feel.
There is a virtue in simplicity sometimes. I would cite as a totally unrelated example the AK47 Kalashnikov assault rifle, a weapon beloved of brigands the world over. Crudely made, it is rumoured you can use it to dig a foxhole for yourself before firing on the enemy. Anyone can field strip it / repair it. It never jams in an emergency. Primarily the 1949 design never loses sight of its deadly purpose. No matter what you do to it, what conditions are, or how you look after it, you press the trigger and a bullet comes out the barrel to kill someone. http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/
Mercedes cars used to be a bit like that. They started, they ran, they stopped, even when neglected, the garage down the road could sort them, they lasted years without rusting. They fulfilled their primary design function 100% - transporting people reliably from A to B in safety the world over. Now I am not so sure??

 

[grober]

t34 versus tiger!

On the same theme there's an interesting article on the Russian T-34 tank on wikipedia for anyone interested. To whet your appetite a quote from a captured German tank commander about the T34. "it takes 5 of your t-34s to take on one of our german tigers but you always seem to have six!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

 

[glojo]

On the same theme there's an interesting article on the Russian T-34 tank on wikipedia for anyone interested. To whet your appetite a quote from a captured German tank commander about the T34. "it takes 5 of your t-34s to take on one of our german tigers but you always seem to have six!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

That was sadly a gross under estimation of the ratio

I took this extract from the same source that you very kindly posted

A major problem with the Tiger was its very high production cost. During the Second World War over 40,000 American Sherman and 58,000 Soviet T-34s were produced, compared to 1,350 Tiger I and 500 Tiger II tanks. The German designs were expensive in terms of time, raw materials and reichsmarks, the Tiger I costing over twice as much as a contemporary Panzer IV and four times that of a Stug. III assault gun

Thanks for posting an interesting link,
John

 

[madasafish]

My wife runs a car which is very complex by the standards of 10 years ago, highly specified and extremely complex by the standards of 20 years ago and unthinkably complex and luxurious by the standards of 40 years ago .
It has:
twin overhead camshafts
16 valves
tuned inlet and exhaust systems so it flies over 3,000rpm
multipoint fuel injection
Front suspension mounted on its own subframe insulated from the rest of the car to reduce noise vibration and harshness
airconditioning
leather interior
alloy wheels
6track CD player and radio
6 year body warranty (it's five years old and no rust)
central locking and remote entry.
etc

Yes: it's a Ford Fiesta.

 

[wallingd]

:d

Perodua?

Perodua?

 

[grober]

Verging on the masochistic??

"verging on the masochistic" was 4cars verdict. http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/P/perodua/kelisa02-/kelisa02-.html
Does fullfill the criteria of simplicity if nothing else. It appears to fail on safety, build quality, handling, design etc. It does seem that the only avenue to purchase a new uncomplicated simple car is to purchase one which is inferior in most other design respects. Pity because simple design and good quality are not necessarily mutually exclusive qualities in a product.

 

[glojo]

Pity because simple design and good quality are not necessarily mutually exclusive qualities in a product.

I wonder if you have found a niche market? Trouble is most drivers are spoilt and perhaps might demand to have luxuries?

John

 

[Tiff]

I see an 09 plate Lada Niva every day, if you are quick I believe you can still purchase one!!!

 

[verytalldave]

How about one of these ? ? ?

AND its available to buy in the UK today..............

http://www.merlingarages.co.uk/home.htm

Take alook through the gallery.............

I personally GUARANTEE you will not find a more basic less complicated NEW car for sale anywhere in the world.

 

[blondebier]

Sssskoda!

If you're happy to entertain the idea of a Sssskoda, then maybe look towards a KKKK-i-a...?

They're probably full of loads of gismotry, but the manufacturer is happy to slap a 7 year warranty on them...

They've got to be pretty confident that they'll last a fair while.

 

[BTB 500]

How about one of these ? ? ?

AND its available to buy in the UK today..............

Are you sure?

Company was set up in 2002, and the website doesn't seem to have been touched since 2004

 

[verytalldave]

Are you sure?

Company was set up in 2002, and the website doesn't seem to have been touched since 2004

No I am not.
I posted this link only assuming the website information was still valid.
I suppose a short phone call would give us the answer...............................................................

Just phoned.............

Well, the guy who could help me was not available but the lady who answered gave me the "general impression" that perhaps things might not be as per the website details.

So you are probably correct.