Thoughts on Vettel ignoring team orders?

[brucemillar]

F1 is a team sport where the team and their sponsors are fighting for the championship. Behind that is the individual drivers championship (the bit we want to watch)

Red Bull as a team had agreed with BOTH their drivers prior to the race that if they had a solid 1, 2 after the final pit stops then they would revert to team orders. This is done to protect the teams chances and conserve engines etc, WIth only eight engines per season that makes for good team sense.

Both drivers agreed to this order prior to race start. What we saw was Webber honouring his agreement and Vettel not honouring it. That was to the possible detriment of his team and his co-driver who he knew was acting as an employee and following his agreement.

That is why so many in the sport are dismayed and now question Christian Horners Leadership over SB's undoubted desire to win at all costs. That would (it appears to be) over the cost to his employers, team mates and crew.

That single minded strategy may well win him more titles but could also spell disaster if Webber to takes the same approach.

As Rosberg said to Brawn "remember this". He later said "I am a Mercedes Employee"

Maybe not what we want to see. But that is team sport backed by huge money.

 

[Stratman]

 

[Paul/]

Vettel is reputed to be very knowledgable of F1 history, if so he should be aware of the consequences for the Ferrari team in '82 of drivers falling out over team orders...
Gilles Villeneuve was overtaken for 1st place by teammate Didier Pironi on the last lap of the San marino GP.
"Villeneuve was irate as he believed that Pironi had disobeyed the order to hold position..... Feeling betrayed and angry Villeneuve vowed never to speak to Pironi again".
Villeneuve was killed in practice in the following race (Belgium), it has been suggested that he was pushing too hard to beat Pironi's time.
I can't see Webber reacting recklessly, but my point is I think Vettel's action was more serious than some in RB are acknowledging.

 

[brucemillar]

Vettel is reputed to be very knowledgable of F1 history, if so he should be aware of the consequences for the Ferrari team in '82 of drivers falling out over team orders...
Gilles Villeneuve was overtaken for 1st place by teammate Didier Pironi on the last lap of the San marino GP.
"Villeneuve was irate as he believed that Pironi had disobeyed the order to hold position..... Feeling betrayed and angry Villeneuve vowed never to speak to Pironi again".
Villeneuve was killed in practice in the following race (Belgium), it has been suggested that he was pushing too hard to beat Pironi's time.
I can't see Webber reacting recklessly, but my point is I think Vettel's action was more serious than some in RB are acknowledging.

Paul. Very true It is reported that SB was blanked by the RB team and that shocked him.

Unlike Schumacher who was the great driver in a often poorer car SB has the best car and team right now. He will need Webbers help at some point. I suspect that may not happen.

 

[nick mercedes]

Anyway. ***. Sends you post reports. You then repost them. Big clue here Nick. You have no credibility.

Is this some sort of weird conspiracy theory?

Why can't we all be friends??

 

[st13phil]

This is done to protect the teams chances and conserve engines etc, WIth only eight engines per season that makes for good team sense.

Agreed. It will look like the stupidest move of the 2013 season if Vettel has an engine let go later in the year.

 

[brucemillar]

Agreed. It will look like the stupidest move of the 2013 season if Vettel has an engine let go later in the year.

Yes. However Webber has said that teams protection of SB will extend to ensuring that he gets the pick of the bits (and that may include engines)

I think it is not good for the sport in the same way that we saw Brawn order Rosberg to hold station behind a clearly much slower Hamilton (struggling for fuel and grip). Lewis would have willingly given Rosberg the place. The difference being that Rosberg knows that so they can remain as a team.

For Red Bull I fear that they will self implode. SB simply carry on doing what he does. Christian Horner will have no choice to but to back him. The alternative would be to attempt to sanction him. In doing that he penalises the team and the sponsors. So they are stuck with it. Webber realises this now and I suspect will either leave when it suits him or simply ignore team orders when it suits him. He only needs to let the pack through when defending SB or hold the Pit Lane up. Or as we saw with Senna, Schumacher, Prost, just bump him off the track.

 

[1945wickedred]

Yes but he is still a member of a team and should adhere to his team principal's orders i.e Christian Horner and not be a loose cannon.He lacks respect for Mark Webber as in " get him out of the way he is too slow" arrogant and up his self.

 

[1945wickedred]

No race ban but should get a talking to from Christian Horner about being part of a team,a winning team at that,he nearly took them both out by being a loose cannon,remember what happened last time they came together both crashed out,no points.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

Do you need it spelt out?


Perhaps as Rebaron would say. You are a Mongolian.

Anyway. ***. Sends you post reports. You then repost them. Big clue here Nick. You have no credibility.

As with all the other sane members of this forum, I have no idea what this is all about and wish it could be kept in private.

BUT, right here in public I have to question your 2nd line. You attributed the phrase "You are a Mongolian" to Redbaron but I'm pleased to say I've never seen him use those actual words. What I need to know is whether or not that phrase was intended as an insult? If so, I am extremely insulted . My wife is Mongolian and proud of it. Natuarally I'm very proud of her. I'm also proud of her countryfolk who continue to survive in conditions that you would find impossible to imagine. Mongolians are tough, far tougher than you or I could ever be.

However, I like to remain confident that you're man enough to apologise.

Sorry to most of you for adding to the wide deviation from the thread.

 

[Gkinghorn]

F1 is a team sport where the team and their sponsors are fighting for the championship. Behind that is the individual drivers championship (the bit we want to watch)

Red Bull as a team had agreed with BOTH their drivers prior to the race that if they had a solid 1, 2 after the final pit stops then they would revert to team orders. This is done to protect the teams chances and conserve engines etc, WIth only eight engines per season that makes for good team sense.

Both drivers agreed to this order prior to race start. What we saw was Webber honouring his agreement and Vettel not honouring it. That was to the possible detriment of his team and his co-driver who he knew was acting as an employee and following his agreement.

That is why so many in the sport are dismayed and now question Christian Horners Leadership over SB's undoubted desire to win at all costs. That would (it appears to be) over the cost to his employers, team mates and crew.

That single minded strategy may well win him more titles but could also spell disaster if Webber to takes the same approach.

As Rosberg said to Brawn "remember this". He later said "I am a Mercedes Employee"

Maybe not what we want to see. But that is team sport backed by huge money.

Ignoring all the personal insults flying - please take them all back to the school playground? - I think this hit the nail on the head.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

I think that Vettel has finally managed to get himself into the same club as Michael Schumacher and Alonso. Brilliant drivers who most of us hate. There have been many equally and more talented drivers who have shown that races can be won without the self-centred aggression. Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Senna ...

Last Sunday Seb and Mark were instructed to ease off to protect their rapidly deteriorating tyres. They were way ahead of Lewis in third so didn't need to risk anything by pushing so hard. Mark heeded the instructions knowing that every point is valuable. Seb's only thoughts were on a win - nothing else mattered. He was willing to risk everything. Fortunately Mark has more sense and didn't race when the mad German decided to overtake.

Vettel's tried to smooth things over with an apology. But how would he have felt if his actions had resulted in a blow-out and he'd spun off? How would he have felt if his actions had resulted in serious injuries, to himself or another driver? He's shown us he has the balls to race well, now he needs to show us he has some brains too.

I think that Red Bull now need to demonstrate that Vettel isn't their only driver. They need to demonstrate that to the viewing public, and more importantly to Webber. Mark would understandably have the attitude from now on of 'why bother'.

 

[grober]

All's fair in love and war and Formula 1 -----You might think. However at the end of the day all that leading edge technology and driver ability ultimately relies on a few sponsorship decals on the cars. What happens to Vettel will depend on what the team owners/ sponsors think. Has he "sullied the brand" or not ? I think maybe in this instance he did and he realised his mistake. This was one time his driving brilliance wasn't going to get him out of trouble and he knew it. Will his career suffer- unlikely-- but there's a black mark in the book now that won't disappear this season at least.

 

[Paul/]

I think that Vettel has finally managed to get himself into the same club as Michael Schumacher and Alonso. Brilliant drivers who most of us hate. There have been many equally and more talented drivers who have shown that races can be won without the self-centred aggression. Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Senna ...

Entirely agree with the rest of your post but...
Alonso might be hated in UK, but I don't think it's as justified as for Schumi (who BTW for me is a hero for what he did at Ferrari)-
and, great though Senna was, he sealed the '90 title by deliberately driving in to Prost in the 1st corner of the Japanese GP...

"The extreme tactics Senna was prepared to used to win the world championship – risking his own life as well as Prost’s and potentially others’ – was not lost on his arch-rival, who said:

I’m not prepared to fight against irresponsible people who are not afraid to die.

​

The horrendous consequences which Senna’s actions could have had were demonstrated in a tragic crash two years later. Hitoshi Ogawa and Andrew Gilbert-Scott collided at the same corner during a Japanese Formula 3000 race in 1992, at comparable speeds to Senna and Prost, perhaps a shade higher. Ogawa was killed when his car was launched over the barrier. Gilbert-Scott, a cameraman and two photographers were also injured.

On many other days Senna’s otherworldly driving ability – not to mention his intense personal charisma – won him legions of supporters. His greatest drives have inspired a further generation of fans since his death.
But there was a dark side to his character which the events of October 21st 1990 make impossible to ignore."

1990 Japanese GP: Senna takes Prost out at Suzuka - F1 Fanatic

 

[brucemillar]

As with all the other sane members of this forum, I have no idea what this is all about and wish it could be kept in private.

BUT, right here in public I have to question your 2nd line. You attributed the phrase "You are a Mongolian" to Redbaron but I'm pleased to say I've never seen him use those actual words. What I need to know is whether or not that phrase was intended as an insult? If so, I am extremely insulted . My wife is Mongolian and proud of it. Natuarally I'm very proud of her. I'm also proud of her countryfolk who continue to survive in conditions that you would find impossible to imagine. Mongolians are tough, far tougher than you or I could ever be.

However, I like to remain confident that you're man enough to apologise.

Sorry to most of you for adding to the wide deviation from the thread.

So you support the use of your wife's country of origin having it's name abused by redbaron. Your wife must be so very proud of you. her Country may well even salute you. Sadly those with Downs Syndrome who redbaron aimed his remarks at will not salute your stance for your wife's country.

Good to know where your morals lie though. Thank you for sharing that with us. Did you also support *** sharing private reports on threads with his buddies on this forum, so that they may use these reports later. Or were you at the Mongolian Embassy that night supporting your wife. Maybe you popped out to have a laugh at some people with Downs Syndrome? Or perhaps you joined redbaron aka Wet Fart in some tales about shooting down British pilots.

Oh. By the way. Redbaron and Co tried to jusitify their abuse of your wife's country of origin by referring to it as a term for drunkeness.

Is your wife a drunk?

Anyway. Glad to see that you support him. You are well matched.

 

[redbaron]

So you support the use of your wife's country of origin having it's name abused by redbaron. Your wife must be so very proud of you. her Country may well even salute you. Sadly those with Downs Syndrome who redbaron aimed his remarks at will not salute your stance for your wife's country.

Good to know where your morals lie though. Thank you for sharing that with us. Did you also support *** sharing private reports on threads with his buddies on this forum, so that they may use these reports later. Or were you at the Mongolian Embassy that night supporting your wife. Maybe you popped out to have a laugh at some people with Downs Syndrome? Or perhaps you joined redbaron aka Wet Fart in some tales about shooting down British pilots.

Oh. By the way. Redbaron and Co tried to jusitify their abuse of your wife's country of origin by referring to it as a term for drunkeness.

Is your wife a drunk?

Anyway. Glad to see that you support him. You are well matched.

You really have lost the plot haven't you?

 

[brucemillar]

You really have lost the plot haven't you?

Thanked by ***.

 

[del320]

I mean, do I exist in a parallel universe?

 

[Dieselman]

I mean, do I exist in a parallel universe?

One of you...

 

[Dryce]

So you support the use of your wife's country of origin having it's name abused by redbaron.

This thread has a bizarre alternate universe life.

I have no idea what is going on between you 2 (or is it 3? or is it 4?).

But having this type of interaction in these forums doesn't seem appropriate.