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TMC enabled Navteq DVD

lil.smartie said:
The letter we had promising a refund for misselling on our unit states estimated launch in UK will be mid 2006!!

Hi Kate,
Congratulations on getting the refund. I fully expected the 211 to be able to receive TMC when we purchased the vehicle, but I never really made an issue of it.

I note in the manual for the COMAND it has a cope out clause saying how it will only operate in countries where TMC has been activated???? (certainly not an exact quote and I'm to poorly to reach the book) TMC has been operating for a number of years in this country and in January Daimler Chrysler announced how they had finally purchased a licence to operate the system. We are now in November....... How long does it take to write a small piece of software?

I think there is a 211 owner that has actually got compensation for not actually being able to use the TMC option and it is something I am paying close attention to! It doesn't help when there are so many different systems throughout the Mercedes-Benz range. Was it Shude that mentioned some models already have TMC activated??

Thanks for the post,
Regards,
John
 
I think some of the older CD based ones have TMC but I don't know if that's just cos the owners have bought 3rd party updates with the info on.

We have been given a 50% refund from Smart UK for our systen in the forfour, it's the same 1/2 baked effort as the a, c, slk and ML's are getting duped into buying! Was a bit of a battle but well worth it for 11rc £900

Kate
 
John,

Got my letter. They are investigating and have asked for more time to come to a response - I think its because I explicitly refered to other letters by date, and included a copy of the press release.

JTC.
 
glojo said:
Was it Shude that mentioned some models already have TMC activated?
TMC is available for comand 2.0/2.5 if you use a 2005+ TMC disc.

TMC is actually on quite a few discs, possibly even the ones you are using right now but there is a config file on the disc listing which navigation units may use the TMC data and on the first TMC disc I ever used mercedes was set to 0! Fiat/Ferrari/Maserati, Ford and one or two others were listed with 1 rather than 0.

What you are waiting for people is not a piece of software, you are waiting for them to change mercedes = 0 to mercedes = 1. This should not take 18 months should it?
 
saorbust said:
John,

Got my letter. They are investigating and have asked for more time to come to a response - I think its because I explicitly refered to other letters by date, and included a copy of the press release.

JTC.
Hi saorbust,
Thanks for that. It sounds like we both keep documentation, but I simply put the reference number of previous correspondence :o. I never kept the press release, but it looks like it depends on whose desk the letter lands on?

If you get better treatment, then I will have to drag my head out of the sand :rolleyes: and liase with you.

Good luck,
John

Stop Press :)
I have just received a Priority Post from the Netherlands, which very briefly states that:

***** there has been a delay in the introduction which has now been changed to the beginning of 2006. Please note that this information is subject to change.*********

Prior to taking delivery of the car in February 2004 I was told COMAND actually had this facility!! I suppose you can argue that it does. It simply is not activated. To me that is not a very clever response, but I am biase.

Oh well let round five commence.

Regards,
John the discontented
 
Shude said:
What you are waiting for people is not a piece of software, you are waiting for them to change mercedes = 0 to mercedes = 1. This should not take 18 months should it?

Hi Shude,
I understand what you are saying and if the file was easily obtainable, that is exactly what I would do!! I am not that computer literate, but have looked at the DVD and cannot see any mention of what you are describing.

I am sure you are correct, (you usually are) it is simply operator error. The annoying issue is that when we purchased the vehicle we were told the facility was there!!! When the upgrade eventually gets released (2010 anyone :rolleyes:) ) This DVD will in my opinion cost in excess of £350 incl. VAT

I have lost count of how many upgrade DVD's there has been since February 2004, but four seems to ring a bell! These DVD's were approximately £370 EACH!! When you add up the cost it starts getting rediculous and again in my humble opinion, it is NOT value for money.

I am trying to get my head around why some Mercedes models have this system activated and yet others do not. I was of the opinion that in the UK the TMC signal is owned by one company who sell a licence to the manufacturer to use the system?

If the licence was sold to the mapping company... i.e. NAVTEQ then my Pioneer system is NAVTEQ based and that has TMC??? Any ideas?

Regards,
John
 
The DVD's are cheaper now - my dealer had v4.1 on sale for 258. Okay still a lot - but cheaper.

We need the location codes added to the disc - this effectively licenses it. Its not a 'Mercedes = 1' code fix.

Navteq provided the mapping data to MB - MB then proof it, format it, and make any software updates etc - probably with the manufactuer of the COMAND system.

This has all been documented, but fundamentally we can't do jack until they sort it out.

Clarky.
 
glojo said:
....If the licence was sold to the mapping company... i.e. NAVTEQ then my Pioneer system is NAVTEQ based and that has TMC??? Any ideas?

Regards,
John

Licenses are sold to operators, not mapping co's. Teleatlas is a bit unique - they have purchased the right to provide the license. Navteq provide it for some of their direct purchase discs.

However our discs are not Navteq discs - etc....they have Navteq data.
 
glojo said:
I understand what you are saying and if the file was easily obtainable, that is exactly what I would do!! I am not that computer literate, but have looked at the DVD and cannot see any mention of what you are describing.
On the navigation CDs (rather than DVDs) there are some config files, one of those files had the TMC settings in it.
glojo said:
I am sure you are correct, (you usually are) it is simply operator error. The annoying issue is that when we purchased the vehicle we were told the facility was there!!! When the upgrade eventually gets released (2010 anyone :rolleyes:) ) This DVD will in my opinion cost in excess of £350 incl. VAT
You do already have the feature, it just doesn't work in the UK.
glojo said:
I have lost count of how many upgrade DVD's there has been since February 2004, but four seems to ring a bell! These DVD's were approximately £370 EACH!! When you add up the cost it starts getting rediculous and again in my humble opinion, it is NOT value for money.

I am trying to get my head around why some Mercedes models have this system activated and yet others do not. I was of the opinion that in the UK the TMC signal is owned by one company who sell a licence to the manufacturer to use the system?

If the licence was sold to the mapping company... i.e. NAVTEQ then my Pioneer system is NAVTEQ based and that has TMC??? Any ideas?
It is a collaboration between the disc/map supplier and the vehicle/navigation system manufacturer.

Teleatlas already got this sorted out, Navteq need to catch up I think!
 
Shude said:
You do already have the feature, it just doesn't work in the UK.

Totally agree. I wish the brick wall between us and France was knocked down!! I am far, far nearer to Cherbourg than I am to London, 150 miles to Cherbourg, 217 miles to London.

My TMC will work in France but not in England. Looks to me like there is one duecy of a battle still being fought in the English Channel??? :D (humour!! I accept there are no radio booster stations in mid-channel and the nearest French transmitter is way over the horizon) Can French TMC information be picked up by members that live near Dover?? ;)

Thanks soarbust,
If I understand you correctly Teleatlas opens all their discs to allow access to this facility? I roughly understand what you are saying about NAVTEQ, my Pioneer disc will NOT work in the 211 and am I correct in assuming that Pioneer write the disc putting in the 'bells and whistles' then add the street data from NAVTEQ? Teleatlas put the TMC coding into their data but NAVTEQ have left the end user to make the decision?? Does that sum things up, or am I way off course. (traffic jam in thought processing and no TMC warning :) )

Thanks for all the information.

John
 
As far as I can see, TeleAtlas appears to have directly licensed the TMC data from the UK supplier, ITIS. (As an aside, TrafficMaster has now launched a TMC service, too. It's a shame that MB didn't sign up with them - data should be brilliant for dynamic route guidance).

As a result, TA can sell navigation disks with the TMC codes attached to the road segments so that the navigation engine can apply dynamic navigation using the TMC coding on the navigation disk. When you buy a TA disk, part (a substantial part, I suspect) of the disk purchase price goes back to ITIS to fund their ongoing costs associated with the collection and broadcast of TMC data over the air.

Navteq clearly have also encoded the ITIS TMC codes to their road segments but they do not appear to have entered into a direct marketing agreement with ITIS in the way that TA has done. Therefore, as ITIS always needs to see revenues for every TMC-enabled disk sold (which is fair enough), it is up to MB to put into place the necessary revenue channel that collects and returns money to ITIS. This is the agreement that was reached in January of this year.

BUT, in addition to the revenue issue, there is a question of implementing TMC on a technical level, too; this can only be addressed after the commercial agreement is in place.

Whilst it is true that Navteq's UK data map clearly has TMC successfully embedded (witness John's Pioneer unit), there is a big step from there to getting it to work on a specific navigation unit. Also, whilst it is clear that the Comand system is already TMC enabled (it works in other countries), this capability will be based upon the open-standard TMC codes - remember that in every other country in Europe, TMC data is FREE using published (i.e. non proprietory) coding methods. ITIS will not be using the open-standard coding.

To avoid any non-payers being able to utilise ITIS's TMC data, they will have developed a proprietary road-segment encoding system - and it will take time to engineer that into the Comand system. This will sit alongside of the open-standard encoding already working within the system and Comand will need to handle both code formats seamlessly. This is definitely not a case of changing a software code switch, I am afraid. I would expect this to be the area in which the delays are occuring and this will be Becker's responsibility.

Finally, from personal experience with MB in this industry, I know they take great care to ensure that the resulting system matches their engineers' expectations so I can imagine there is plenty of testing going on (or yet to be done).

All of this doesn't mean, of course, that I am not hacked off waiting for it as well. :crazy:

Philip
 
prprandall51 said:
Finally, from personal experience with MB in this industry, I know they take great care to ensure that the resulting system matches their engineers' expectations so I can imagine there is plenty of testing going on (or yet to be done).

Hi Philip,
Even my drug adled brain can understand your post. What you say certainly makes sense and patience is not my strongest virtue.

What are the benefits of TrafficMaster and what are the 'TMC' type improvements?

Thanks for taking the time to explain things,
John
 
John,

I was the one who got compensation (£500) for what i would loosly describe as "mis-selling". I pointed out that TMC was included as a working feature for the UK in the brochure, and a cheque arrived soon thereafter.

However, bear in mind that you do need to complain about this fairly soon after receiving the car otherwise you are deemed as "accepting" the vehicle as-is.
 
glojo said:
Hi Philip,
Even my drug adled brain can understand your post. What you say certainly makes sense and patience is not my strongest virtue.

What are the benefits of TrafficMaster and what are the 'TMC' type improvements?

Thanks for taking the time to explain things,
John

Hi John, big answer coming because it’s Friday afternoon:

TrafficMaster uses those little boxes on the roadside to measure traffic speeds. Used to be blue, but now seem to be green (though the blue ones are still there, next to the green ones... Heaven knows what they all do). Because the boxes use number-plate recognition, they can calculate the exact average speed of an individual vehicle - because they measure a large number of vehicles simultaneously, the TrafficMaster data provides a very accurate indication of average road speed on a particular road segment for all vehicle types across all lanes (on multi-lane roads) indeed and is always bang up to date. The data is very much "real-time".

Traffic speed along a road segment is EXACTLY what a navigation system wants to know about. If you want to travel from Gloucester to London, you can choose the M4 or the A40/M40. If the nav system knows the traffic flow rates along both routes, then it can calculate the genuine, most efficient route, which may (of course) be the longer route in terms of distance.

Finally, waving TrafficMaster's flag, those guys have got awesome coverage. I think they have pretty much every A road and Motorway - and a number of other "strategically important" routes, too - completely covered. That means that if there is a problem at 3.00am in the morning on the A34040 in the middle of nowhere, TrafficMaster knows about it.

Now, I don't like blowing TrafficMaster’s trumpet because all of this valuable information is exclusive to them and they ******* [legally risky word deleted here] the government into giving them an "exclusive" on roadside measuring equipment years ago. TrafficMaster has milked its exclusivity well and truly, to the detriment of the British motorist and also to the detriment of the UK economy (think of all those wasted business hours, all those cars stuck in queues needlessly). But that exclusivity meant that ITIS (or any other potential competitor) needed to find an alternative method of traffic data collection to roadside monitoring equipment, and the reality is that for navigation systems, the TrafficMaster system is the best.

With no option on roadside monitoring, ITIS came up with "floating car data". This technology puts a GPS receiver and a transmitter into a number of vehicles on the British roads (currently about 50,000, I believe). The cars' progress along a road is measured and the data is transmitted back at regular intervals to a central data collation and processing station.

So, in theory, floating car data is doing the same job as the TrafficMaster cameras. But unfortunately, this is simply never going to be the case. Most importantly, you need a monitored vehicle to be on the A3404 at 3.00am in the morning in the middle of nowhere in order to gather flow data. Then, how do you know the monitoring vehicle hasn't pulled over for the driver to have a fag? Or that it hasn’t had a flat tyre, or any number of other reasons for slow progress along that road. I suppose that the system will dismiss the car flow data if it appears that the car has stopped of it’s own accord, but how often have you come up behind a tail-back and killed your engine because it’s going to be a long wait? That would then be valuable data. And what about when you are in a jam so you pull into the services as an alternative to sitting i nthe car?

Also, if there is a crash on the Motorway a couple of junctions in front of a monitored vehicle, that vehicle might well exit the motorway and head off across country, so the ability to measure the traffic flow through the incident is lost.

And so it goes on. I am sure you can imagine other scenarios in which reliable traffic flow data is hard to obtain from a floating car data model.
My final preference for TrafficMaster data is this: both companies use multiple databases for traffic reporting, a real-time database contains information on what is going on now, an historical database provides records of past traffic flow rates and this feeds the third database – a predictive database that tells you traffic conditions before they have even occurred. For example, if you are planning a route that will take you round the M25 at rush hour, you can predict that the traffic is going to be bad at that time, even if it is 2 O’clock now and everything is flowing well (mind you, I don’t know if anyone is doing this sort of dynamic guidance yet). Anyway, the point is – TrafficMaster have sooooo much more data at hand for predictive planning than IT IS simply because of their data gathering system design.
On top of all that, it is important to note that both companies also use incident data to round off their information offering. In the end, though, navigation systems like flow data best.

Finally (good, I hear you say!) on this subject, the Highways Agency was so miffed at being denied access to the TrafficMaster database - having granted TrafficMaster an exclusive licence (the Highways agency didn’t realise that exclusive meant that they wouldn’t get access to the data either!) - they started a vigorous programme of inserting induction loops onto the carriageways of all major roads as they came up for resurfacing. These induction loops also measure the real-time traffic flow and should match TrafficMaster data in terms of accuracy and volume of data collected. I think this data is starting to make it out into the mainstream and that ITIS has access to it. – but I am only guessing that by reading websites and stuff. If that is the case, the coverage and quality of the ITIS data will be considerably enhanced and we will be laughing all the way along the open road in our MBs.

Philip
 
Mr E said:
However, bear in mind that you do need to complain about this fairly soon after receiving the car otherwise you are deemed as "accepting" the vehicle as-is.

:) I knew my memory was not that bad. TMC was merely an item that the salesperson explained was one of the many features that the 211 had. However I was to annoyed at being given false information regarding Linguatronic to think about TMC. I got a very nice hamperto compensate me for the Linguatronic, so I do not want to be to greedy. I am certainly not going to lose sleep over this issue, but...........

John
 
With the Garmin 7200 and 2620 series of GPS units you can attach an additional unit that feeds directly into the Trafficmaster TMC system.
 
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glojo said:
:) I knew my memory was not that bad. TMC was merely an item that the salesperson explained was one of the many features that the 211 had. However I was to annoyed at being given false information regarding Linguatronic to think about TMC. I got a very nice hamperto compensate me for the Linguatronic, so I do not want to be to greedy. I am certainly not going to lose sleep over this issue, but...........

John
Whats the story on the linguatronic?
 
plgibson said:
Whats the story on the linguatronic?

Nothing exciting,
The salesperson told me it was unavailable for the estate (S211). I thought it was and wanted it. The result being I was given false information and told I could re-order the car, but it would take an awful long time.

Keeping abreast of every single option for every single model cannot be easy, I just wish when folks don't know something they simply explain they do not know and will find out about the required information. TMC for instance!! Plus I suppose we had quite a comprehensive list of options which were not regularly ordered.

Oh and thanks again Mr E for a very, very informative message.

Regards,
John
 
glojo said:
Nothing exciting,
The salesperson told me it was unavailable for the estate (S211). I thought it was and wanted it. The result being I was given false information and told I could re-order the car, but it would take an awful long time.

Keeping abreast of every single option for every single model cannot be easy, I just wish when folks don't know something they simply explain they do not know and will find out about the required information. TMC for instance!! Plus I suppose we had quite a comprehensive list of options which were not regularly ordered.

Oh and thanks again Mr E for a very, very informative message.

Regards,
John
I had the same but since had it retrofitted. Glad i did its really handy at times
 
glojo said:
.....

Thanks saorbust,
If I understand you correctly Teleatlas opens all their discs to allow access to this facility? I roughly understand what you are saying about NAVTEQ, my Pioneer disc will NOT work in the 211 and am I correct in assuming that Pioneer write the disc putting in the 'bells and whistles' then add the street data from NAVTEQ? Teleatlas put the TMC coding into their data but NAVTEQ have left the end user to make the decision?? Does that sum things up, or am I way off course. (traffic jam in thought processing and no TMC warning :) John

John,

If you think of the disc in the same way you view the options on your car - you'll be reasonably close.

Basically the disc is the base model - think of TMC Location Codes (do the translation stuff) as an option. Hence Teleatlas offer a disc with or without it.

Navteq in the MB case are not selling directly to MB customers - they go via MB - so MB control the content. Teleatlas have a different agreement with MB to provide the information to MB and via their own channels.

Its such a freakin' mess !!!!

Very interesting posts Philip BTW - especially re Trafficmaster and TMC....
 

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