To buy a 190e with fuelling issues?

[MichaelMB]

A surprising number of 190e s are being offered for sale, without a substantial discount, where the seller is frank enough to admit that they have no more time to investigate an issue. eg poor cold starting ("might just be the HT leads"....or might need a new K-Jetronic), or it randomly stalls when warm and decelerating. Or indeed has clutch judder when cold.

When I sell cars they are running well, so I'm surprised at how many 190e s have issues like these but are still asking £5-7k (because they are said to have no rust and have the combination of factory A/C and no sunroof that I prefer).

Am I unfair to think that with faults like these, which the seller has tried to resolve themselves but given up on, I should expect almost £1500-£2000 off so I can hand it to a Mercedes Independent and say "please fix" ?

 

[MichaelMB]

A surprising number of 190e s are being offered for sale, without a substantial discount, where the seller is frank enough to admit that they have no more time to investigate an issue. eg poor cold starting ("might just be the HT leads"....or might need a new K-Jetronic), or it randomly stalls when warm and decelerating. Or indeed has clutch judder when cold.

When I sell cars they are running well, so I'm surprised at how many 190e s have issues like these but are still asking £5-7k (because they are said to have no rust and have the combination of factory A/C and no sunroof that I prefer).

Am I unfair to think that with faults like these, which the seller has tried to resolve themselves but given up on, I should expect almost £1500-£2000 off so I can hand it to a Mercedes Independent and say "please fix" ?

PS do many give up on K Jetronic and convert the 290e to Megasquirt or similar? I read that a better version of KJ was used on the W124, perhaps just the later models.

 

[grober]

My advice would be never buy a NON-RUNNER- a car that is not driven every day routinely

 

[MichaelMB]

My advice would be never buy a NON-RUNNER- a car that is not driven every day routinely

I'm starting to feel that way about them. They are apparently running and driving, but looks like the owners of the various cars advertised like this have got frustrated and given up putting more time, money and effort into them.

 

[ChipChop]

A surprising number of 190e s are being offered for sale, without a substantial discount, where the seller is frank enough to admit that they have no more time to investigate an issue. eg poor cold starting ("might just be the HT leads"....or might need a new K-Jetronic), or it randomly stalls when warm and decelerating. Or indeed has clutch judder when cold.

When I sell cars they are running well, so I'm surprised at how many 190e s have issues like these but are still asking £5-7k (because they are said to have no rust and have the combination of factory A/C and no sunroof that I prefer).

Am I unfair to think that with faults like these, which the seller has tried to resolve themselves but given up on, I should expect almost £1500-£2000 off so I can hand it to a Mercedes Independent and say "please fix" ?

Not unreasonable to expect to pay less for a car on sale with disclosed faults. Bosch dizzy caps & rotor arms are apparently quite expensive. As are genuine OVP relays and idle control 'valves'.
Ali express OVP relays however are a bargain (sub £8 delivered!) and apparently function just fine (see link below). One possible solution to stalling KE jet on 190e's is to disconnect the idle control potentiometer (valve). They will run without the electronic input i am told.

The other way to avoid issues with ageing electronic injection systems is to buy a mechanically injected diesel w201. No engine ecu so no problems.

Car Overload Protection Relay Stable Performance Wear Resistant Overload Relay for Mercedes Benz R129 W124 W126 W201 2015403745 - AliExpress

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www.aliexpress.com

 

[MichaelMB]

Not unreasonable to expect to pay less for a car on sale with disclosed faults. Bosch dizzy caps & rotor arms are apparently quite expensive. As are genuine OVP relays and idle control 'valves'. Ali express OVP relays however are a bargain (sub £8 delivered!) and apparently function just fine (see link below). One possible solution to stalling KE jet on 190e's is to disconnect the idle control potentiometer (valve). They will run without the electronic input i am told.

The other way to avoid issues with ageing electronic injection systems is to buy a mechanically injected diesel w201.

Car Overload Protection Relay Stable Performance Wear Resistant Overload Relay for Mercedes Benz R129 W124 W126 W201 2015403745 - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Very useful info as ever, thanks. I'd love a diesel W201 and have seen one for sale in Ireland. But I am already being optimistic looking for factory air, no sunroof, no rust, small engine. Throw diesel into the mix as a 'must have ' and pigs might fly!

 

[190]

A surprising number of 190e s are being offered for sale, without a substantial discount, where the seller is frank enough to admit that they have no more time to investigate an issue. eg poor cold starting ("might just be the HT leads"....or might need a new K-Jetronic), or it randomly stalls when warm and decelerating. Or indeed has clutch judder when cold.

When I sell cars they are running well, so I'm surprised at how many 190e s have issues like these but are still asking £5-7k (because they are said to have no rust and have the combination of factory A/C and no sunroof that I prefer).

Am I unfair to think that with faults like these, which the seller has tried to resolve themselves but given up on, I should expect almost £1500-£2000 off so I can hand it to a Mercedes Independent and say "please fix" ?

I had a long term problem with my 190e which I kept for 21 years. The cold start injector was providing excessive richness which made starting difficult. Once running it was perfect. I could find nothing wrong with the circuit that controlled the cold start injector so eventually I decided to just fool the ECU into thinking that the ambient temperature was higher than it really was by adding a fixed resistance in parallel with the engine temperature sensor. After a bit of experimentation with the resistor value it work well and had no impact on hot running. There is also a cold start air admittance valve which basically bypasses the normal idle air adjuster to raise idle speed when cold. It's a simple thermal valve bolted to the engine which opens when the temperature is cold and closes as the engine warms up with some assistance from an electrical heating element. Being at the back of the engine, this valve is a bit of a pig to get at and remove but it is adjustable and I found mine wasn't opening enough which will have compounded the excessive richness.

My take on the K Jetronic was that the original mechanical system was sound and well under stood by those experienced in fixing it. The Ke system which 190e had, retained the basic mechanical system but added an ECU to fine tune the mixture including partially controlling cold start. I discovered there were several iterations of exactly how the cold start enrichment was controlled and I suspected that MB had kept modifying it over the years to make it work better.

 

[MichaelMB]

I had a long term problem with my 190e which I kept for 21 years. The cold start injector was providing excessive richness which made starting difficult. Once running it was perfect. I could find nothing wrong with the circuit that controlled the cold start injector so eventually I decided to just fool the ECU into thinking that the ambient temperature was higher than it really was by adding a fixed resistance in parallel with the engine temperature sensor. After a bit of experimentation with the resistor value it work well and had no impact on hot running. There is also a cold start air admittance valve which basically bypasses the normal idle air adjuster to raise idle speed when cold. It's a simple thermal valve bolted to the engine which opens when the temperature is cold and closes as the engine warms up with some assistance from an electrical heating element. Being at the back of the engine, this valve is a bit of a pig to get at and remove but it is adjustable and I found mine wasn't opening enough which will have compounded the excessive richness.

My take on the K Jetronic was that the original mechanical system was sound and well under stood by those experienced in fixing it. The Ke system which 190e had, retained the basic mechanical system but added an ECU to fine tune the mixture including partially controlling cold start. I discovered there were several iterations of exactly how the cold start enrichment was controlled and I suspected that MB had kept modifying it over the years to make it work better.

Thanks, so the later the better in this regard. Or possibly, Megasquirt?

 

[carat 3.6]

Thanks, so the later the better in this regard. Or possibly, Megasquirt?

Ke-jet is a reliable system, the problem is that to diagnose a fault properly requires time and in some cases specilist tools. Alot of garages wont want to get involved because it is often an adventure into the unknown, and it can tie up a technicion for alot longer compared to a modern vehicle.

If your not worried about keeping originality by converting the engine managment to something better, it doesnt matter what engine the car has. So my advice is to buy on condition of the car itself, rust free in a colour you like, then drop an m111 in it if you want to keep to a small engine.

And dont considor megasquirt, that name gets thrown about by people doing projects themselves on the cheap.

 

[DanMorgan]

These K-Jets hate not being used (as mentioned above). Unless you know what you are doing, I would only buy a running engine that's been used every year.

I had been chasing a K-jet issue with my 300CE for years. It was a barn find at 28k miles, so it was not used that much. It had constant breakdowns, lots of expensive parts, etc.

I bit the bullet last year and I am now going down the route of a TE-Motorsport setup with a Maxx-ECU. I am also twin turboing it and throwing in a cosworth dogleg too (but that's because why not, I am already doing all the work).

 

[ToeKnee]

And dont considor megasquirt, that name gets thrown about by people doing projects themselves on the cheap.

Megasquirt is used by thousands of people it is a very stable system with a lot of support and there's probably a ready map from somewhere who's fitted one to your engine.

 

[MichaelMB]

These K-Jets hate not being used (as mentioned above). Unless you know what you are doing, I would only buy a running engine that's been used every year.

I had been chasing a K-jet issue with my 300CE for years. It was a barn find at 28k miles, so it was not used that much. It had constant breakdowns, lots of expensive parts, etc.

I bit the bullet last year and I am now going down the route of a TE-Motorsport setup with a Maxx-ECU. I am also twin turboing it and throwing in a cosworth dogleg too (but that's because why not, I am already doing all the work).

View attachment 164454

Thanks. The car I was enquiring about seems to me to be priced as a good runner, but described as a project that will cost £2k-£4k to be sorted by an independent. As I already have 2 project cars I want a cracker and will pay for one, so am going to pass on this one.

 

[MichaelMB]

Ke-jet is a reliable system, the problem is that to diagnose a fault properly requires time and in some cases specilist tools. Alot of garages wont want to get involved because it is often an adventure into the unknown, and it can tie up a technicion for alot longer compared to a modern vehicle.

If your not worried about keeping originality by converting the engine managment to something better, it doesnt matter what engine the car has. So my advice is to buy on condition of the car itself, rust free in a colour you like, then drop an m111 in it if you want to keep to a small engine.

And dont considor megasquirt, that name gets thrown about by people doing projects themselves on the cheap.

Thanks. The vendor reckons his local mechanics love the challenge of older vehicles, pity they haven't fixed his

 

[ChipChop]

These K-Jets hate not being used (as mentioned above). Unless you know what you are doing, I would only buy a running engine that's been used every year.

I had been chasing a K-jet issue with my 300CE for years. It was a barn find at 28k miles, so it was not used that much. It had constant breakdowns, lots of expensive parts, etc.

I bit the bullet last year and I am now going down the route of a TE-Motorsport setup with a Maxx-ECU. I am also twin turboing it and throwing in a cosworth dogleg too (but that's because why not, I am already doing all the work).

View attachment 164454

You appear to have a Ferrari F1 car parked up behind your C124. Bit unusual!

 

[MichaelMB]

I had a long term problem with my 190e which I kept for 21 years. The cold start injector was providing excessive richness which made starting difficult. Once running it was perfect. I could find nothing wrong with the circuit that controlled the cold start injector so eventually I decided to just fool the ECU into thinking that the ambient temperature was higher than it really was by adding a fixed resistance in parallel with the engine temperature sensor. After a bit of experimentation with the resistor value it work well and had no impact on hot running. There is also a cold start air admittance valve which basically bypasses the normal idle air adjuster to raise idle speed when cold. It's a simple thermal valve bolted to the engine which opens when the temperature is cold and closes as the engine warms up with some assistance from an electrical heating element. Being at the back of the engine, this valve is a bit of a pig to get at and remove but it is adjustable and I found mine wasn't opening enough which will have compounded the excessive richness.

My take on the K Jetronic was that the original mechanical system was sound and well under stood by those experienced in fixing it. The Ke system which 190e had, retained the basic mechanical system but added an ECU to fine tune the mixture including partially controlling cold start. I discovered there were several iterations of exactly how the cold start enrichment was controlled and I suspected that MB had kept modifying it over the years to make it work better.

Very useful, thanks. With 2 project cars at home right now, I realise that whatever I buy now had better be currently running well. My intention is to pay a fair market price for a nice example rather than pick up a project at a lower price and hope it won't cost too much to fix....as they usually seem to!

 

[carat 3.6]

Megasquirt is used by thousands of people it is a very stable system with a lot of support and there's probably a ready map from somewhere who's fitted one to your engine.

It's generaly used in DIY builds where the instalation can leave alot to be desired, that doesnt go for everyone but I've had to put right other peoples work a few times. Each tuner will have their prefered system, and thats the one you want to use.

 

[ToeKnee]

It's generaly used in DIY builds where the instalation can leave alot to be desired, that doesnt go for everyone but I've had to put right other peoples work a few times. Each tuner will have their prefered system, and thats the one you want to use.

Surely by using any aftermarket ECU it could be described as a "DIY build"?

 

[carat 3.6]

Surely by using any aftermarket ECU it could be described as a "DIY build"?

Depends on who's speced it and put it all together.

By DIY I mean the sort of thing that goes like this: Owner watches a few youtube vids and decides he's going to have a go at an engine conversion, buys some parts off ebay and a cheap ecu. Chucks it alltogether with a hacked around wiring harness and whatever else he needed to do to get it running, downloads a "map" from daves mate on facebook and it runs to an extent but pings and bogs like an overloaded tuktuk. Brings it to a tuner who tells him that everything needs ripping out and doing properly, and it's going to cost 10k to put right.

As opposed to: Seeking proffessianal help from a tuner, who will spec all the parts to work in harmony with each other, and an engine management system that will get the best out of it. Put it all together with a bespoke wiring harness, and set it up properly on a dyno.

Then you have well known tuners that all used aftermarket ecu's, Carlsson, Hartge, Renntech, RUF, Cosworth. None of their work I would considor DIY.

 

[ToeKnee]

By DIY I mean the sort of thing that goes like this: Owner watches a few youtube vids and decides he's going to have a go at an engine conversion, buys some parts off ebay and a cheap ecu. Chucks it alltogether with a hacked around wiring harness and whatever else he needed to do to get it running, downloads a "map" from daves mate on facebook and it runs to an extent but pings and bogs like an overloaded tuktuk. Brings it to a tuner who tells him that everything needs ripping out and doing properly, and it's going to cost 10k to put right.

As opposed to: Seeking proffessianal help from a tuner, who will spec all the parts to work in harmony with each other, and an engine management system that will get the best out of it. Put it all together with a bespoke wiring harness, and set it up properly on a dyno.

So your comment in post#9 wasn't from personal experience, just something you've heard about off the net while my comment on megasquirt being ok is based on 15 years using it?

 

[carat 3.6]

So your comment in post#9 wasn't from personal experience, just something you've heard about off the net while my comment on megasquirt being ok is based on 15 years using it?

You mean the part I said about putting right other people's mess? As I said in post #9 that's not everyone, but that's my experience of it and it taints my opinion somewhat.

If you like megasquirt, and are happy to work with it, good on you. You are also entitled to your opinion, I'm sorry that you feel offended by mine.

So shall we agree to disagree or are you looking for an argument?