• The Forums are now open to new registrations, adverts are also being de-tuned.

towing with c200K?

There's always someone who knows better than the manufacturer isn't there?

FYI: The differing nose weight limits of the two products are nothing to do with the moments exerted on the vehicle, but instead occur as a consequence of the fact that it's a removable tow bar and the figures relate to the locking mechnism for the removable swan neck.

I'm not completely convinced of this. I do believe that each towbar is rated for nose load, but the car manufacturer sets it's own limits also. These limits don't change whether it's fixed or removable, which they would under your suggestion....
 
There's always someone who knows better than the manufacturer isn't there?

No doubt Bill will be back to fend for himself, but...this sort of argumentative statement isn't at all necessary nor welcome. Thank-you.
 
I'm not completely convinced of this. I do believe that each towbar is rated for nose load, but the car manufacturer sets it's own limits also. These limits don't change whether it's fixed or removable, which they would under your suggestion....

You're right I didn't word that very well: what I meant is that, as you say, the vehicle manufacturer sets a maximum limit (in this case 100kg) but some manufacturers of budget removables will err on the side of caution and offer a product with a lower limit in order to meet a price point.
I wasn't seeking to differentiate between fixed and removable; simply between different types of removables.
 
Last edited:
No doubt Bill will be back to fend for himself, but...this sort of argumentative statement isn't at all necessary nor welcome. Thank-you.

Fair point. Sorry. But it wasn't I who started the argument. I simply stated facts with which another poster chose to take issue. Incorrectly.
Moreover it was fairly obvious that the poster had never heard of Bertelshofer, and hadn't looked at their product range, and is unaware of their range of activities which include clearing their own products through the Kraftfahrt Bundesamt.

Had he been aware he might have been less "surprised".
 
Last edited:
Im going to go against everyone and say no matter what it says in the book, I would prefer a C220 cdi or C270 for the torque...

That little 1.8 will struggle come any hill...

its a supercharged 2 litre mate :thumb:

thanks for your suggestions all, Ill have a look at those towbars.

As ive said before im completely new to the world of towing but surely this maximum noseweight debate is simple common sense? (I apologise if I have this wrong)
The maximum drawbar noseweight specified by mercedes for my car is 75kg. So if I had a towbar rated at 100kg I would put a maximum of 75kg noseweight on it (maximum for the car) as any more would be too much weight on the car
if i had a towbar with a lower rated noseweight than the car manufacturers maximum then that rating would become the maximum i would put on it (maximum for the towbar) as any more would be too much weight for the towbar.
that way nothing is running at more than its maximum rated weight.
surely its that simple? :dk:

I hope so or i think ill stick to hotels!! haha
 
also, interestingly, the C180 and C220 CDI have a maximum trailer weight (braked) of 1200kg whereas the C200 kompressor and C230 kompressor have a maximum of 1500kg? seems a bit strange that? I wonder if its something to do with the supercharger helping with hill starts etc?

Although that said, simon mentioned earlier he pulled just under 1500kg with his C220CDI and it never missed a beat! I dont think im going to have a problem with my caravan (fingers crossed) :bannana:
 
You're supposed to base the 85% 'rule' (guideline) on the kerbweight of the car though, not the maximum weight it could possibly be.

As mentioned, you need to look up the maximum noseweight limit too as it can be pretty low on some cars (I have seen 40 kg, for example).

ahhhh ok Bill so is the kerbweight the same as unladen weight then? which is 1480kg meaning 85% = 1258kg? if so, 1340kg is close enough..... it'll have to be I bought the caravan today! haha
cheers
 
Right on all counts Gazzdid. I'd be very surprised if you get a towbar that's rated to below 75kg so that would be your limit because that's your cars limit.
And your car will pull that van just fine.

Next question is...did you get all the equipment with the van, water containers, hook-up leads etc etc?
 
You'll be fine towing - just take it easy, plan ahead and enjoy yourself.

There are a few caravanners on MBClub, so make sure you share some photos :thumb:

Beware though it's a slippery slope. You'll justify a bigger car based on it being "better" for towing the caravan, but you'll then get a bigger caravan because your bigger car can tow more. You'll then buy a car with a bigger engine, to make short work of the bigger caravan, and the cycle continues!! We possibly got carried away!!...

bobby-dazzler-albums-w164-ml63-amg-caravan-picture7124-ml63-amg-ace-supreme-globestar-michael-wood-service-station-m5.jpg
 
its a supercharged 2 litre mate :thumb:

thanks for your suggestions all, Ill have a look at those towbars.

As ive said before im completely new to the world of towing but surely this maximum noseweight debate is simple common sense? (I apologise if I have this wrong)
The maximum drawbar noseweight specified by mercedes for my car is 75kg. So if I had a towbar rated at 100kg I would put a maximum of 75kg noseweight on it (maximum for the car) as any more would be too much weight on the car
if i had a towbar with a lower rated noseweight than the car manufacturers maximum then that rating would become the maximum i would put on it (maximum for the towbar) as any more would be too much weight for the towbar.
that way nothing is running at more than its maximum rated weight.
surely its that simple? :dk:

I hope so or i think ill stick to hotels!! haha

It's not always quite that simple: You're right that if a tow bar maker quotes a lower number than the vehicle manufacturer, then the lower number is the limit which you must observe, but if the reverse is true i.e. vehicle manufacturer says 75kg but the tow bar manufacturer says 100kg, then that may be for a different reason:

Bertelshofer, who I mentioned yesterday, and their sister company Rameder are quite proactive when it comes to tow bars and type approval.

Consequently they have on a number of occasions acted as a design authority and sought EU Type Approval for retrofit towing equipment which exceeds, or alters the vehicle manufacturer's original specification/recommendation.

To do this they provide the previously mentioned Kraftfahrt Bundesamt with a design data set which justifies for an expansion/alteration of the Type Approval envelope compared to those provided by the manufacturer.

As an example: my CLS isn't plated for towing, yet Ramader has sought and gained EU Type Approval for the addition of a tow bar with a 2000kg limit. Guess what my car is fitted with?

I've got possibly the only legally tow bar equipped C219 in the country...

Right then, back to your car: It's possibly that Rameder/Bertelshofer have sought Type Approval for a tow bar design with an increased nose weight limit than that specified by Merc. If you're interested then you'll need to do some research to confirm the Type Approval details, but all the information is out there on the web.

Sorry if I've been a bit tetchy on this whole towing thread, but there are a lot of well-meaning people offering opinions, but who maybe haven't fully understood the Type Approval system and how it's being used (exploited?) in Germany.
 
Last edited:
I've got possibly the only legally tow bar equipped C219 in the country...

Does the type approval extend to all engine types?

Would you mind postings few links please?

Lack of type approval on the CLS was one of the reasons I didn't buy one a few years ago, so you've got me thinking again...
 
ahhhh ok Bill so is the kerbweight the same as unladen weight then?

Not quite. The kerbweight is higher as it includes fuel, driver, and a small amount of luggage. Unladen weight excludes those.
 
As an example: my CLS isn't plated for towing, yet Ramader has sought and gained EU Type Approval for the addition of a tow bar with a 2000kg limit.

Do you have formal confirmation from anyone that this is road legal in the UK? As a layman I understood there to be two parts to type approval in respect of towing. First that the vehicle must be submitted for approval by the manufacturer. Due to the cost of this process quite a few vehicles that are not commonly expected to tow are not certificated for towing.

E.g.

Witter towbars UK FAQ

Q I have a Ford Ka and want to tow my small trailer but nobody lists a towbar. Can I have one specially manufactured?

A NO. When EC Type Approving the vehicle, the manufacturer did not declare that it was suitable for towing. It therefore has no specified towing capacity and no specified mounting points. Towing with, or even the fitment of a towbar to any such vehicle registered on or after the 1st August 1998 would make you liable to prosecution

Q How can I find out if my new car or model variant, is EC Type Approved for towing?

A For a new car or model variant a definitive answer could be obtained by examining the vehicle VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) plate, which should have four figures stamped into the lower edge denoting its carrying capacity.
VIN No. (known as chassis number)
XXXX kg -(Max vehicle weight)
XXXX kg -(Max train weight i.e. vehicle and trailer)
1. XXXX kg -(Max front axle load)
2. XXXX kg -(Max rear axle load)

If no train weight is specified then the vehicle is not approved for towing, and therefore cannot legally do so.

And second that towing brackets themselves must also be submitted for type approval.

Q How can I tell if a towbar is EC Type Approved

A It will have a label, data plate or stamping showing an E No. (e.g. E11*0001*00). This figure denotes that it is EC Approved in the UK (E11), has approval number (0001), of EC Document revision 0.

Regardless of legality I assume that fitting a towbar would void any M-B warranty (since they don't approve the vehicle for towing)?
 
Do you have formal confirmation from anyone that this is road legal in the UK? As a layman I understood there to be two parts to type approval in respect of towing. First that the vehicle must be submitted for approval by the manufacturer. Due to the cost of this process quite a few vehicles that are not commonly expected to tow are not certificated for towing.

E.g.

Witter towbars UK FAQ





And second that towing brackets themselves must also be submitted for type approval.



Regardless of legality I assume that fitting a towbar would void any M-B warranty (since they don't approve the vehicle for towing)?

Good questions:

The first point is that anyone can, in theory, apply for Type Approval for a vehicle. As you say, it is usually done by the manufacturer, but anyone with enough time and resources can seek that approval – though they’ll need a design data set (drawings, build standard etc) to support the application – then there’s the rigmarole of all the safety testing etc.

Part of the approval process for a vehicle intended for towing would consider that as well, and would specify the attachment points for the coupling.

Then, as you correctly say, the bracket itself has to be approved, which from what I understand is to show that it meets the interface as defined in the original (vehicle) data set.

What it seems that the German companies are doing is exploiting the fact that the C219 CLS shares all its floor plan pressings with the W211 E Class – hence all the attachment points are already present – and presumably are referred to in the data set for the W211.

They then present to the Kraftfahrt Bundesamt a set of design data which is based upon that for the W211, but with deltas where appropriate for the C219, and presents a reasoned argument as to why it is legitimate to read across the clearance.

The Kraftfahrt Bundesamt has assessed that body of evidence and concluded that the C219 is capable of safely towing hence they have issued an updated Type Approval Certificate which addresses all those numbers that you have quoted from Witter, including a Gross Train Weight of 2370kg + 2000kg (towed) though I suspect that in practice this might be constrained by rear axle load.

Now technically under EU Regulations there is a Mutual Recognition Scheme which ensures that a Type Approval given by one state’s regulatory body is recognised by all other states. On paper that means that VOSA are obliged to accept it, but as someone who has been involved in fast jet airworthiness I wanted to be squeaky clean:

Therefore I contacted VOSA prior to importing and fitting the bar, sent them the revised Type Approval Cert and received written confirmation that my interpretation is correct and that I may legally use the bar in UK.

I also have what is in my terms a Letter Of No Technical Objection (LONTO) from M-B UK, and have informed my motor insurance provider.
The LONTO makes mention of voiding any warranty, but if a W211 can do it then I can’t see why the C219 shouldn’t be capable. There is mention of a cooling modification (an F G Fan) but I’m told that it will only apply if operating hot and high near the max load limit, and my race car/trailer combination only weighs about 1100kg.

As you might imagine this took a fair bit of research of part numbers etc and other work to get all the ducks in a row....
 
Last edited:
That was a good bit of work. One interesting thought, presumably there's nothing to stop any other towbar manufacturer producing one for the 219 now ... so long as they get it type approved in the normal way.

Coming back to the C220 though, I'm still not clear how they can offer a towbar that permits the owner to exceed the official 75kg noseweight restriction. Did they put the car itself through the type-approval process again simply to over-ride M-B's limit by 25 kg?
 
Coming back to the C220 though, I'm still not clear how they can offer a towbar that permits the owner to exceed the official 75kg noseweight restriction. Did they put the car itself through the type-approval process again simply to over-ride M-B's limit by 25 kg?

Yes, that appears to be the case. There's a document here http://img1.kupplung.de/assets/files/samples/104993_v1.pdf which contains not only the instructions in multiple languages, but also the details of an EU Type approval which provides for 100kg nose weight.

This happens to be a Westfalia tow bar, so they're obviously all at it, though in this case they seem have submitted it through the Ministry of Transport of Luxembourg.

Maybe Witter are missing an opportunity...
 
I can see the logic where a manufacturer hasn't had a car type-approved at all. But here they are saying that they know better than M-B (who designed and built the car) ... and this is being approved. Bizarre!
 
I can see the logic where a manufacturer hasn't had a car type-approved at all. But here they are saying that they know better than M-B (who designed and built the car) ... and this is being approved. Bizarre!

You're absolutely right, and isn't this where we came in on Friday...? ;)

Bizarre? Yes, but do bear in mind that in this case they've not altered the rear axle max load; only the nose weight value, so it's possible that to 'use' the full 100kg hitch allowance you could only have one rear seat passenger, or maybe not fill the boot completely, whereas M-B will define a value which is in addition to a full complement of passengers.

Alternatively it may be that M-B don't fancy offering a warranty on the dampers if they're regularly subjected to that loading...
 
Ask your Mercedes dealer parts counter for a price too - you may be surprised.

yep you weren't wront there mr dazzler! rang my local MB dealer, £2500!!!!! surprised isnt the word :doh:
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom