Tuning a W204 facelift 220CDI and 250CDI...same engine?!!?

[robthebubble]

Hi all,

When I got my C220CDi the chap at the garage said it's the same 2.2 twin turbo engine as the C250CDi. If that is the case then surely the tuning would be identical...I.e. If I were to get a remap would it be the same output as having a remapped C250CDi?

Cheers

 

[Red C220]

See this thread:- http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/performance-lounge/172772-remapping-e-class-220-vs-250-q.html

 

[robthebubble]

Perhaps if I did a better search I would have found it! Lol basically it's the same amount of power from a remap...just a case of finding a well priced local firm with good rep!

 

[euler]

Perhaps if I did a better search I would have found it! Lol basically it's the same amount of power from a remap...just a case of finding a well priced local firm with good rep!

yes same amount of power! around 220 bhp if you have solenoid injectors... don't believe in other values claimed by tuning companies!!! chose one that can provide you the dyno test before/after remap!!! I saw some 250 cdi that their owners thought having 220bhp and really just having 200bhp like the original!! Same for the 220cdi. It is easy to put a 220cdi with 200bhp, but it isn't easy to put it with 220bhp!! The tuner must know the limiters and the tricks! The dyno test is a crucial part of the process. Don't believe in words. Believe in the graphs! Even though you must make a road test. I give you an example. I was testing some remap files in a 250cdi and they were nice putting the car with 220bhp. No errors at roller test. No errors at the road.. until i drive in a really steep highway and what happens?! safe mode because of a ESP error leading to total loss of acceleration!!! So even you if like the car after remap, even if you have the proof of the 220bhp, please test it in maximum charge conditions, like a steep road, full throttle!!!

the difference for the 250 cdi is that you can get like 520-530 Nm of torque in a 250 cdi, but for the 220cdi you will get around 470-480Nm

 

[robthebubble]

Thanks for the response...I've noticed some people are claiming up to 260bhp on a map...is this correct? Also, if the engines in the 220 and. 250 are identical, why would the 250 have more torque?

 

[elbarry]

I am sure that there was a thread a while back, possibly regarding a track day meet up with some tasty 'racing spec' amg cars.
The thread also demonstrated a white E250 tourer which had been remapped up to 260BHP.
Reasonably certain it was either a thread by MSL or Rebellion. Also remember some graphs being posted showing the E250 up to 260bhp and with increased Nm of up to 620.

Cue for Acid or Matt to back this up...

 

[euler]

I am sure that there was a thread a while back, possibly regarding a track day meet up with some tasty 'racing spec' amg cars.
The thread also demonstrated a white E250 tourer which had been remapped up to 260BHP.
Reasonably certain it was either a thread by MSL or Rebellion. Also remember some graphs being posted showing the E250 up to 260bhp and with increased Nm of up to 620.

Cue for Acid or Matt to back this up...

It depends where you measure the car!! I tested a 250cdi at one place and it gave 225bhp and in my benchmark place it gaves 200bhp!!! same car and same original software!

I repeat! 260bhp from initial 200bhp are completely impossible! why those famous companies don't post the original values???? ask them for the original graph!!!!!!!!!! the answer will be: "we don't have it"

The otimal value for a 220cdi or 250cdi is 220bhp. More than that you will have cuts in acelleration, a non linear drive... Concerning to the 250cdi we are talking about 20bhp gains... 60bhp gains are impossible!!!

 

[robthebubble]

That seems to answer it then...not sure what this E250 giving out 260bhp is all about?!?!

 

[6cyl]

Euler why are higher power outputs "impossible" ?

Clearly these people didn't hear what you're saying superturbodiesel.com - tuning performance turbo diesel mercedes, W123, W116 and up. OM617, OM60X
They're getting >500ps from an old OM606 MB engine .... with a new turbo, pump and injectors etc, but nothing is impossible.

I had a 110ps Passat - it had a remap, bigger intercooler and injectors. It put out a reliable 155ps. Later I had a 130ps A4, remapped it was putting out 190ps. All proven on the road with dyno readings. The percentage increase is greater than 200 to 260ps.

 

[elbarry]

Still trying to find that thread with the 250/260 bhp e250 white tourer. Basically just a remap to achieve such
Anyone remember it.
It was on the back end of a track day thread showing some pics of modded kitted track amg cars all sponsored up...!

 

[geraldrobins]

Euler why are higher power outputs "impossible" ?

Clearly these people didn't hear what you're saying superturbodiesel.com - tuning performance turbo diesel mercedes, W123, W116 and up. OM617, OM60X
They're getting >500ps from an old OM606 MB engine .... with a new turbo, pump and injectors etc, but nothing is impossible.

I had a 110ps Passat - it had a remap, bigger intercooler and injectors. It put out a reliable 155ps. Later I had a 130ps A4, remapped it was putting out 190ps. All proven on the road with dyno readings. The percentage increase is greater than 200 to 260ps.

Isn't the fact that you started with about 58 ps per litre and a 220 starts odd with 77 ps per litre relevant. And 190ps from an 1.9 vag is 100ps per litre is equivalent 220 from a 2.2 merc. I know the vw is only 8 valve but max revs, valve area etc will surely limit output eventually no matter how much mixture the turbo tries to push through.

 

[6cyl]

All boils down to how much slack has been designed into the original engine and ancillaries, then it's down to how much of the leeway you want to encroach on. Some engines are deliberately detuned for marketing reasons. Some manufacturers leave the slack for the facelift or special edition.

As an aside I don't have a 220 or 250 CDI, but I have driven the 250 and found it very impressive as far as performance and economy was concerned, however I couldn't get on with the noise, I found it much too harsh.

 

[stevehg]

It depends where you measure the car!! I tested a 250cdi at one place and it gave 225bhp and in my benchmark place it gaves 200bhp!!! same car and same original software!

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here. Differences between rolling roads will appear, as it depends on calibration and also accuracy of drivetrain loss ratio for the vehicle used at time of testing.

The otimal value for a 220cdi or 250cdi is 220bhp. More than that you will have cuts in acelleration, a non linear drive... Concerning to the 250cdi we are talking about 20bhp gains... 60bhp gains are impossible!!!

The standard rate of tune for this engine is 170 HP. Delivering 260HP from a remap would mean an increase of 90HP, so ~52%. Not impossible, but not likely without an intercooler upgrade and max boost threshold change - if that's possible, if not then use of an external boost box.

At these levels of HP a better exhaust system would yield an 8-12HP increase on its own. So remap would need to produce an additional ~80HP (~47%) and agin this is not impossible.

Most remaps claim 230HP for the 250, so about a 35% increase over 170HP. This is easily achievable with a remap over stock and no need for an intercooler upgrade or exhaust upgrade to achieve this.

I would think with an intercooler and exhaust upgrade you should be able to achieve 240-250HP with a remap without a too severe state of tune.

cheers, Steve

 

[euler]

Still trying to find that thread with the 250/260 bhp e250 white tourer. Basically just a remap to achieve such
Anyone remember it.
It was on the back end of a track day thread showing some pics of modded kitted track amg cars all sponsored up...!

Yes I remember that graph with >260bhp! But it was a line with too much oscillations, that would translate to acceleration cuts and lags when driving it!!!!!! And probably car would enter in safe mode in certain scenarios...

And again the problem of presenting just the lines of the remap!!! It was 260bhp from how many initial bhp??? One thing is 260bhp from 200bhp... another thing is 260bhp from 225bhp... they should had measure that white E250cdi before remap so we can compare!!!

I give another example of how tuning companies hidde the results concerning to this specific engine 250cdi... DTUK sells tuningbox from german DTE-Systems... I asked DTE-Systems to send me the dyno test of the new V250 bluetec for which they claim more 25hp. They had dyno it. They promised the email with the graph, but it passed 9 days and they don't send me the email and why? how they do the calculations? Mercedes claim 190 hp (not bhp) for the new V250 bluetec. DTE-Systems put the box and measure. It gives 215 hp. They claim 25 hp (=215-190) of gains! But what about the original values? why they don't compare with the run made without tuningbox??? probably because without tuningbox it gaves 200 hp and the real increment was only 15 hp and not the 25hp!!! In this specific engine you can't gain more than 15hp with a tuningbox...