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5) Horn ( consider a horn warning , or headlamp flash , if someone may be unaware of you and would benefit )

5.5) Motorcyclists have an extra 'lifesaver' shoulder check at this point .

So, you are suggesting we should all drive around 'honking' on our horns and looking for motorbikes before we make any manoeuvres????

This would make for noisy roads..LOL

As for 5.5, Motorbikes should stop driving around like nutters and take responsibility for THEIR actions instead on bleating on every time they come a cropper due to riding like they are doing a lap at Brands Hatch every time they get on their Death Traps!!!
 
I recently had a collision in similar circumstances to the one described, queues or traffic, I was turning right, cars stopped to let me go, STUPID maniac on a motorbike comes tearing up the outside of queued traffic(Well he was doing at least 15mph) and crashed into my car....Insurance says 'my fault' What a crock!!

All motorcyclists should get fined/points when overtaking queuing traffic, they are, as stated earlier, just a menace to all of us!!!

Absolutely no question on this one, you turned right without looking back over your shoulder and checking nothing was coming down your offside thus turning into the path of the bike, hence your fault.

What if it had been a police bike or paramedic bike?

Motorcyclists are quite within their rights to overtake queing traffic as long as they do it legally. Just because you did not look do not take umbridge with bikers because they can get through queues faster than you can.

Bikers are very vunerable people so think once, think twice think bike. Unless you want the death of a biker on your conscience?

Some of the most dangerous drivers I have ever met on UK roads displayed similar attitudes to yours to their fellow road users.

Cars and Bikes are killing machines in the wrong hands and with the wrong driver / rider attitude.

Lets stay calm & safe out there people :thumb:
 
Bikes are only dangerous because of the people riding them....

In my 'no fault' accident, a lorry had stopped so I had no way of seeing if a bike was overtaking the queueing traffic, I edged out to turn right as you do when you are a cautious driver, and BAM!! stupid bike crashed into me..How can that be my fault?

IF bikers cared about their lives, they would see a gap has developed between queuing traffic and there could potentially be someone pulling out, based on that, I'll slow down when I get there. Unfortunately, they don't think like that, they think ' I own the road, if I want to overtake queueing traffic I will, I know I will get away with my stupid and dangerous behaviour because the laws an ass and if I do hit a car it won't be my fault because ' I ride a bike so must be perfect'

If it had been a Police or Paramedic bike, I'm sure it wouldn't have been stupid enough to crash into my car as they may have a little more sense than your average moronic biker!!!!
 
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Thanks for sharing with us.

I do think bikes should have to have their lights on at all times however, no matter whose fault the OP accident was.

Just like the advert look once look twice, think bike. They do almost appear to come from no where especially when going through a line of traffic.

I hope all is well with biker
 
Bikes are only dangerous because of the people riding them....

In my 'no fault' accident, a lorry had stopped so I had no way of seeing if a bike was overtaking the queueing traffic, I edged out to turn right as you do when you are a cautious driver, and BAM!! stupid bike crashed into me..How can that be my fault?

IF bikers cared about their lives, they would see a gap has developed between queuing traffic and there could potentially be someone pulling out, based on that, I'll slow down when I get there. Unfortunately, they don't think like that, they think ' I own the road, if I want to overtake queueing traffic I will, I know I will get away with my stupid and dangerous behaviour because the laws an ass and if I do hit a car it won't be my fault because ' I ride a bike so must be perfect'

If it had been a Police or Paramedic bike, I'm sure it wouldn't have been stupid enough to crash into my car as they may have a little more sense than your average moronic biker!!!!

Of course you 'just edged out' That's why you didn't see him isn't it?

I had some woman step out in front of me the other day whilst i was on the bike a 'tearing' along at around 15mph (I was coming off a tight mini r/bout to the back of a queue in a 30 limit) and I stopped fine.

I agree that some people do need to be more careful, these are usually your power rangers that don't ride all the time. Most bike accidents are 'no other vehicle involved' people failt o stay shiny side up. However, the next most common is car making a turn of some sort. Very very rarely, no matter what you think are bikers at fault for an accident involving another vehicle.

I can assure you the I have a very high level of self preservation and I think your blinkered approach to shift the blame onto someone else is at best misguided.

I'm with flanaia, imagine if you were pulling out of a junction and couldn't see because of a hedge. You just 'edged' out and WHAM some 'idiot' in a car drives into you. Your fault isn't it?

m.
 
I am in sympathy with rees_A. When faced with a stationary queue of traffic and a car indicating to make a right turn should a bike not stop? Could a car have overtaken the same queue without blame if the same collision had occurred.

I don't believe all bikers are a menace as rees_A states, but in this case (with little evidence except from rees_A) there was at the very least an element of contributory negligence on the biker's part.
 
The only way I could have avoided the accident was to get out of my car after just edging out, walked to the front of my car, had a look past the lorry to make sure there were no bikes coming, got back in my car then turned right, problem with that is by the time I had got back in my car an idiot on a bike would have overtaken all the cars and still crashed into me as I turned slowly right.

Surely, the bike has a responsibility to ensure they do not cause accidents in the same way as cars do. I have avoided many accidents by paying attention.

In the accident I described earlier, the ONLY person who could have prevented it is the Biker as he is the only one who will be able to see(If he had anything on his mind other than getting his parcel delivered). In the eyes of the law I am responsible which is why I think the laws an ass and all bikers have no idea about self preservation and road sense.!!!!!

If I was overtaking parked cars, I would see a car turning right, they aren't exactly small!!!! Which is the same as a biker overtaking traffic!!!!
 
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If you come up to a junction where visibility is restricted , all you can do is to slowly edge out - unless you are going to wait there until Autumn when the leaves fall off the hedge .

As for bikers queue-jumping or overtaking lines of traffic ( filtering is SUCH a much nicer sounding word and makes it seem acceptable , don't you think ? ) I never used to do it on my bike and I don't know why so many think this selfish and aggressive habit is acceptable . Bikers don't have any special rights or priviliges in law over other road users - if someone in a CAR were to drive down the outside of a queue of traffic and hit someone who was turning right then the queue jumper would be very obviously at fault for overtaking when unsafe to do so - this is why advanced drivers have it drilled into them never to overtake at junctions ( emergency drivers using blues and twos are different ) . Why should certain behaviour be tolerated by bikers when it is clearly unacceptable for everyone else .

I wrote only the other week about an encounter I had with an idiot biker : in our local village I was descending a hill with a left hand bend at the bottom , as I came down the hill there was a tractor towing a trailer and a couple of cars behind , all doing about 20mph . Of course all I could do was to join the queue , after the tractor rounded the bend the first car overtook - at this point I was rounding the bend myself and this bike roared alongside , just as the car in front of me started trafficating right . Biker started moving in toward my front wing to try to push between me and car in front ( who actually was turning right ) but I countered this with a blast on my horn and closing the gap between cars before he got there . As car in front turned right , I went through the gap on his left with biker still behind and commenced overtake of tractor BEFORE he could catch up - even then he still overtook me as I was alongside the tractor and proceeded to dissapear over the horizon doing at least double the 30mph speed limit ( judging by the distance he covered relative to me ) .

Clearly this idiot thought that his journey was infinitely more important than everyone else's and that he had an absolute right to expect all other traffic to part the way for him , also that he was immune to the possibility of something coming round that blind bend as he overtook with no escape route . Apart from a complete disregard for his own safety - he was at risk of serious injury , the rest of us only a dented panel or two , this guy clearly had no regard or common courtesy for other PEOPLE on the road .

As above , if someone tried that in a car and came a cropper they would have the book thrown at them - just because they are on a bike , the law is no different in respect to reckless driving .
 
Well said Derek.
 
The only way I could have avoided the accident was to get out of my car after just edging out, walked to the front of my car, had a look past the lorry to make sure there were no bikes coming, got back in my car then turned right, problem with that is by the time I had got back in my car an idiot on a bike would have overtaken all the cars and still crashed into me as I turned slowly right.

Surely, the bike has a responsibility to ensure they do not cause accidents in the same way as cars do. I have avoided many accidents by paying attention.

In the accident I described earlier, the ONLY person who could have prevented it is the Biker as he is the only one who will be able to see(If he had anything on his mind other than getting his parcel delivered). In the eyes of the law I am responsible which is why I think the laws an ass and all bikers have no idea about self preservation and road sense.!!!!!

If I was overtaking parked cars, I would see a car turning right, they aren't exactly small!!!! Which is the same as a biker overtaking traffic!!!!

!!!!!!!! here's some more exclaimation marks for you in case you run out.

Now, I say again, there is a point where people have to look after themselves, that I agree with. If you can see a car making a turn then you wait for it, pretty simple.

However, in your case, you couldn't see him because of this lorry. Ever see those signs on an arctic saying "If you can't see my mirrors i can't see you"? Same thing applies. Chances are he couldn't see you until you 'edged out'.

It also seems that you 'edged out' violently enough to put your car across his path so that he didn't have time to take evasive action. Therefore you have made the turn without properly looking. That i think is the police view of it.

Not saying you are different to a lot of motorists and there is an element of devil's advocate here but if you had been literally inching out the bike could have either stopped or swerved. I doubt very much that he just drove into you for a laugh and a free ride in an ambulance.

Pontoneer - you sound like one of those people who sits in traffic and fumes at all the other people making them late by also sitting in a tin box on the same bit of road. Sensible filtering is what bikes are all about it is why the police and ambulance etc use them and I think you'll find over taking traffic is perfectly legal.

You can't do it in a car because you can't get back onto your side of the road, a bike can, simple as.

Likewise overtakign slow moving traffic. In the case you highlighted, yes the bike is in the wrong, no doubt the aforementioned Sunday PowerRanger, but how many times have you sat behind a line of traffic following a lorry/caravan/tractor etc and cursed the person at the front for not overtakign when they could but also done nothing yourself because everyone is driving too close together? In that situation I would keep the bike moving everytime whilst watching for indicators. Why should I sit at the back of the line when i can make a perfectly safe and legal overtaking manouvere simply because my "time exposed to danger" i.e. being on the wrong side of the road is a fraction of any car?

In summary these "selfish and agressive" bikers are nothing of the sort. They are not delaying your journey at all. Far from it. They might otherwise be sat in a tiny box in front of you making you another few meters further from your destination.

Simply keep an eye out and let them through. anything else is selfish, spiteful and lets be fair, there are much more serious things to get yourself worked into a rage about.

m.
 
The only way I could have avoided the accident was to get out of my car after just edging out, walked to the front of my car, had a look past the lorry to make sure there were no bikes coming, got back in my car then turned right, problem with that is by the time I had got back in my car an idiot on a bike would have overtaken all the cars and still crashed into me as I turned slowly right.

Surely, the bike has a responsibility to ensure they do not cause accidents in the same way as cars do. I have avoided many accidents by paying attention.

In the accident I described earlier, the ONLY person who could have prevented it is the Biker as he is the only one who will be able to see(If he had anything on his mind other than getting his parcel delivered). In the eyes of the law I am responsible which is why I think the laws an ass and all bikers have no idea about self preservation and road sense.!!!!!

If I was overtaking parked cars, I would see a car turning right, they aren't exactly small!!!! Which is the same as a biker overtaking traffic!!!!

Just my 2p''s worth a_rees, but you quote that you would have had to look past the lorry - does that mean you pulled out not being able to see anything at all?

With a queue of cars you can see through the windows to ensure the coast is clear (or the top of the bikers head) prior to pulling out onto the road the biker is on. If this was the case, you may have been liable because it was at your discretion to make sure there was nothing coming first. I do agree that there are bikers out there that don't have a clue.
 
As a filtering veteran of London and this country's fine motorway system I tended to find that the bright orange indicators flashing on the sides of cars usually alerted me to the intentions of individual drivers within queueing traffic thus enabling appropriate action - its quite easy to stop quickly on a bike in all weather conditions provided you are awake, travelling at the appropriate speed and know how to brake. I also used to keep an eye on the position of front wheels as a fall back.

I don't ride a bike anymore but I do keep an eye out for them in traffic situations. Shoulder checking is a very good habit to maintain.

Bikes occupy a much smaller footprint than a car and therefore why shouldn't a rider make progress by filtering if it is undertaken correctly - it was encouraged when I did my DAS.

Aggressive protection of 'owned' road space is an odd and dangerous phenomenon and curiously something I don't see a lot of in the SE but do when I venture north.

Ade
 
As a filtering veteran of London and this country's fine motorway system I tended to find that the bright orange indicators flashing on the sides of cars usually alerted me to the intentions of individual drivers within queueing traffic . I also used to keep an eye on the position of front wheels as a fall back.

....I look for (a) indicator action and (b) front wheel movement and (c) hand movement as so often (c) is immediately followed by (b) and a sudden lurch which could be fatal......
 
Have to say I agree with just about everything Pontoneer has said in post 49.

Though not a biker myself, I'm not anti-bike in any way. When I had my A Class, with its folding mirrors, the most exercise they got was in traffic queues as I would fold them in as a matter of courtesy whenever I saw a bike approaching; space permitting, I also tend to adjust my position within the lane to allow for approaching bikes.

Yet I've never understood why bikes are 'allowed' to filter. Not talking about emergency vehicles, whether they are bikes, cars, ambulances or fire tenders, as they clearly need to get through traffic and their presence is clearly announced. I'm also not referring to overtaking moving traffic, as per the quoted example of traffic queuing up behind a slow-moving vehicle.

I'm talking specifically about motorcyclists filtering through line of stationary or very slow-moving (~5mph) stop-start traffic to get to the front. There are motorways where the lanes are wide enough to allow room for a car to pass between lines of traffic, but I suspect anyone who tried it wouldn't get very far before being stopped by a disgruntled queuer or by the boys in blue. I'm not aware that there are any special provisions for bikers in this respect.

Part of the problem, particularly on the A40, is that bikers don't seem to be able to make up their mind which lanes they're going to filter between. It's usually between lanes 2 and 3, but then you often find someone choosing do so between lanes 1 and 2. I've also seen bikers manoeuvring around cars to switch from one side to the other. Perhaps what's needed is a specific filter lane, marked on the road at key junctions, so that sufficient space is left free and everyone knows what it's there for. We have similar arrangements for push-bikes in London, leading to reserved boxes marked in green at the head of the queue (which often have taxis in them, for some reason).
 
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I'm talking specifically about motorcyclists filtering through line of stationary or very slow-moving (~5mph) stop-start traffic to get to the front. There are motorways where the lanes are wide enough to allow room for a car to pass between lines of traffic, but I suspect anyone who tried it wouldn't get very far before being stopped by a disgruntled queuer or by the boys in blue. I'm not aware that there are any special provisions for bikers in this respect.

Highway Code. section on "extra rules for motorcyclists" para 88 states:
88

Manoeuvring. You should be aware of what is behind and to the sides before manoeuvring. Look behind you; use mirrors if they are fitted. When in traffic queues look out for pedestrians crossing between vehicles and vehicles emerging from junctions or changing lanes. Position yourself so that drivers in front can see you in their mirrors. Additionally, when filtering in slow-moving traffic, take care and keep your speed low.

Remember: Observation – Signal – Manoeuvre

The issue some people are having is with those perhaps breaking the rules but we've all seen car drivers do that so to say all bikers are selfish etc is the same as saying all irish people are in the IRA or all muslims are terrorists it just doesn't wash.

What should happen is bikes be allowed to use bus lanes which currently they can't (despite a London trial) that would sort out a lot of inner city issues.

m.

EDIT additional one for car drivers:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069858
Motorcyclists and cyclists

211

It is often difficult to see motorcyclists and cyclists, especially when they are coming up from behind, coming out of junctions, at roundabouts, overtaking you or filtering through traffic. Always look out for them before you emerge from a junction; they could be approaching faster than you think. When turning right across a line of slow-moving or stationary traffic, look out for cyclists or motorcyclists on the inside of the traffic you are crossing. Be especially careful when turning, and when changing direction or lane. Be sure to check mirrors and blind spots carefully.
 
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We have similar arrangements for push-bikes in London, leading to reserved boxes marked in green at the head of the queue (which often have taxis in them, for some reason).

.....yup....and Mums in 4X4's (so busy dahhhling...) and aggressive (male) drivers just desperate to get 10 feet closer to the next hold up......

......unfortunately for them my bike still fits the space in front of them :-)
 
Just my 2p''s worth a_rees, but you quote that you would have had to look past the lorry - does that mean you pulled out not being able to see anything at all?

With a queue of cars you can see through the windows to ensure the coast is clear (or the top of the bikers head) prior to pulling out onto the road the biker is on. If this was the case, you may have been liable because it was at your discretion to make sure there was nothing coming first. I do agree that there are bikers out there that don't have a clue.

I did not pull out, I was already half way across the road, a biker was overtaking the traffic on the wrong side of the road and even when approaching the junction that I was exiting, the idiot didn't think to stop just in case a car was pulling out. All you bikers are obviously stupid as well and will no doubt have had a few accidents similar to the one I described if you think the biker did nothing wrong.

IF THE IDIOT WAS NOT OVERTAKING TRAFFIC HE WOULDN'T HAVE HIT MY CAR, I'M SURE BIKERS DO IT ON PURPOSE TO GET SOME COMPO AS THEY HATE THEIR JOBS OR THEIR LIVES NOT REALLY SURE BUT THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY UNHAPPY WHICH IS WHY THEY ATTEMPT TO COMMIT SUICIDE EVERYTIME THEY DO THIS ILLEGAL AND DANGEROUS ACTIVITY CALLED 'FILTERING'(Dodging traffic because they feel the law and solid white lines are not there for them to take notice of).!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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!!!!!!!! here's some more exclaimation marks for you in case you run out.

Now, I say again, there is a point where people have to look after themselves, that I agree with. If you can see a car making a turn then you wait for it, pretty simple.

However, in your case, you couldn't see him because of this lorry. Ever see those signs on an arctic saying "If you can't see my mirrors i can't see you"? Same thing applies. Chances are he couldn't see you until you 'edged out'.

It also seems that you 'edged out' violently enough to put your car across his path so that he didn't have time to take evasive action. Therefore you have made the turn without properly looking. That i think is the police view of it.

Not saying you are different to a lot of motorists and there is an element of devil's advocate here but if you had been literally inching out the bike could have either stopped or swerved. I doubt very much that he just drove into you for a laugh and a free ride in an ambulance.

Pontoneer - you sound like one of those people who sits in traffic and fumes at all the other people making them late by also sitting in a tin box on the same bit of road. Sensible filtering is what bikes are all about it is why the police and ambulance etc use them and I think you'll find over taking traffic is perfectly legal.

You can't do it in a car because you can't get back onto your side of the road, a bike can, simple as.

Likewise overtakign slow moving traffic. In the case you highlighted, yes the bike is in the wrong, no doubt the aforementioned Sunday PowerRanger, but how many times have you sat behind a line of traffic following a lorry/caravan/tractor etc and cursed the person at the front for not overtakign when they could but also done nothing yourself because everyone is driving too close together? In that situation I would keep the bike moving everytime whilst watching for indicators. Why should I sit at the back of the line when i can make a perfectly safe and legal overtaking manouvere simply because my "time exposed to danger" i.e. being on the wrong side of the road is a fraction of any car?

In summary these "selfish and agressive" bikers are nothing of the sort. They are not delaying your journey at all. Far from it. They might otherwise be sat in a tiny box in front of you making you another few meters further from your destination.

Simply keep an eye out and let them through. anything else is selfish, spiteful and lets be fair, there are much more serious things to get yourself worked into a rage about.

m.

There was not violence or menace in my 'edging out' I was just following motoring protocol - A Lorry stopped to allow me to exit a junction, I had my indicator on to notify other road users of my intention, I check traffic was clear to my left, slowly edged out to a position that allowed me to double check both ways when a biker decided to examine the front bumper of my car. He actually clipped my bumper rather than wing and was obviously not paying attention to what was happening around him..Probably too busy on his radio trying to get his next pick-up or something....

I'm sure, in this instance, he did fancy a ride in an ambulance, probably after a 'no win no fee' put up all our insurance type claim
 
Pontoneer - you sound like one of those people who sits in traffic and fumes at all the other people making them late by also sitting in a tin box on the same bit of road. Sensible filtering is what bikes are all about it is why the police and ambulance etc use them and I think you'll find over taking traffic is perfectly legal.

You can't do it in a car because you can't get back onto your side of the road, a bike can, simple as.

Likewise overtakign slow moving traffic. In the case you highlighted, yes the bike is in the wrong, no doubt the aforementioned Sunday PowerRanger, but how many times have you sat behind a line of traffic following a lorry/caravan/tractor etc and cursed the person at the front for not overtakign when they could but also done nothing yourself because everyone is driving too close together? In that situation I would keep the bike moving everytime whilst watching for indicators. Why should I sit at the back of the line when i can make a perfectly safe and legal overtaking manouvere simply because my "time exposed to danger" i.e. being on the wrong side of the road is a fraction of any car?

In summary these "selfish and agressive" bikers are nothing of the sort. They are not delaying your journey at all. Far from it. They might otherwise be sat in a tiny box in front of you making you another few meters further from your destination.

Simply keep an eye out and let them through. anything else is selfish, spiteful and lets be fair, there are much more serious things to get yourself worked into a rage about.

m.

Martin ,

I can't remember the last time I 'sat and fumed' at other drivers : whilst I like to make progress where safely possible , I know that if there is a hold up ahead , getting worked up about it achieves nothing . I don't feel anger towards other road users , except where crass stupidity and reckless disregard for safety is manifest .

I also have no problem with bikers and others overtaking WHERE SAFE AND APPROPRIATE TO DO SO . I used to drive a bike myself NEVER went down the outside of a queue of traffic approaching a set of lights or a junction .

Progressing slowly and carefully past stationary or stop/start traffic (not at junctions) is a different matter and not the kind I am complaining about . The bikers I am complaining about are the ones who cannot even wait 30 seconds for what is obviously a temporary situation to resolve itself and will literally risk life and limb to get 10 places ahead in a queue .

There is a BIG difference between safe and legal overtaking on a clear stretch of road and 'aggressive and selfish' queue jumping on a busy and congested stretch of road where it is unsafe , and therefore illegal in the event of a collision , to overtake . As a very rough rule of thumb , if the gaps between vehicles ahead are not big enough to pull safely back into without causing another driver to take evasive action ( ie you have no escape route ) then it is not safe to overtake in the first place - THIS WORKS FOR BIKES , CARS AND ALL CLASSES OF VEHICLE .

The bike in my example above could no more get back onto his side of the (narrow) road than a car could have , given the road width available he must have been in the gutter when he overtook me alongside the tractor - there being not much more than a bike's width left between opposing cars on that road . Had he even 'filtered' down alongside traffic at a more reasonable speed , made eye contact with me , and waited , I would probably have let him in front of me as a matter of courtesy - courtesy begets courtesy - sadly , aggression and trying to force your way in begets the opposite response , and in the case I refer to he got what he deserved . I certainly did not 'get into a rage' over the incident and dismissed it from my mind seconds after it had happened ; I only mentioned it here and on another thread in response to another posting .

The majority of bikers are well aware of their own mortality and vulnerability and , for the most part , ride well most of the time .

Re the following of the lorry/caravan/tractor : I really have no problem with the first two who normally maintain reasonable speeds ( have towed caravans myself on occasion and likely will again ) , but do regularly encounter inconsiderate tractor drivers on my daily commute who don't bother to pull in to allow the following queue to pass ; I certainly feel no malice whatsoever towards the following driver who may not have the power or confidence to pass safely .

There is also a big difference between 'ordinary' road users and emergency response drivers - as you may or may not know , I am an emergency response driver with the Fire Service and sometimes we have to do things we would not dream of doing in everyday driving - even then , safety is still paramount and a blue light is no licence to drive in a reckless manner .

I probably see more of the results of 'selfish and aggressive' driving rather more than most others , having regularly to attend fatal crashes - I sometimes end up doing things that are not strictly my job , but we all 'muck in' when a scene has to be cleared and a road has to be reopened , thus I have on occasion found myself helping to lift bodies out of cars , perhaps mangled bodies with fractured bones sticking out of joints , cleaning up brain tissue from the road surface , waving down blind drivers who cannot see four or five sets of blue lights in the road in front of them .

Perhaps , therefore , my perspective of 'lunatic driving' is slightly different from some other people's .
 
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