Witness

[neilrr]

This thread was started by a man that has been deeply upset by a road traffic accident and it has denigrated into a slanging match between bikers and car drivers.

Matters not whether it's motor or push bikes v. cars, these discussions are always polarized & always descend into slanging matches.

The two sides will never see eye to eye.

 

[martin_a]

As stated above in your 'Examples' ALL of these accidents were caused by Bike Riders performing this black art of 'Filtering' as a result, they caused an accident!!!!!!!!

If they were sitting in the stationery traffic, queueing like everyone else, the accident would not have happened, I rest my case!!!!

They were riding legally. Understand? le-gal-ly. Lets say it together.

m.

 

[renault12ts]

They were riding legally. Understand? le-gal-ly. Lets say it together.

m.

Stop everyone.

Riders are vulnerable.

Legality does not come into it.

Drivers will always do stupid things (and riders too).

The sooner riders realise the stupidity of drivers the sooner they will save themselves.

 

[martin_a]

As for Rees_A, the way he describes it, any rider overtaking on the approach to a junction is just plain foolish. There is oncoming traffic which stops to let our friend make the turn and yet the rider still overtakes. Foolish. Or looking at it from a rider's point of view, when overtaking stationary traffic EXTREME caution is required because drivers WILL do the unexpected. And if you believe they will do the unexpected then you will be a lot more cautious (over and above the caution you no doubt take anyway).

That is the approach I take. As other riders have said, I look for indicators, wheel angles all sorts. When a car pulls to a junction I try to make eye contact with the driver and I watch the wheels to see if they are still rolling.

Also, i never move into oncoming traffic.

I've never disagreed that some people do not ride safely but by contrast rees_a is clearly of the impression he doesn't need to look out for bikes and if he kills someone then that's a good thing. He lives in London, it isn't as though he is unaware of this happening like someone in a rural area who might not have a lot of standing traffic issues so there is a duty of care owed by car drivers too.

If the CBT was part of every driving test (for cars and bikes) then car drivers would be a lot more appreciative of the issues.

m.

EDIT. What a silly follow up post.

Here's what you are saying:

"The sooner people realise that some people drinking leads to alcoholism the better. Ban drink for everyone!"

 

[rees_A]

They were riding legally. Understand? le-gal-ly. Lets say it together.

m.

The law has NOTHING to do with my point. The point I was originally trying to make is that bikers are STUPID, they take STUPID risks and as a result end up flying over the bonnets of cars. This can lead to Death or crippling injury and burdening our health service for a number of years during recovery.

The law is wrong, it allows bikers to risk their lives every time they get on a bike, how many other laws do we have in the UK that allow people to risk their lives? I don't know of any....

As stated in earlier posts, if you feel you wish to risk your life to get somewhere 5 minutes before you would have then you obviously have a low value of your life...Just try to stop and think a minute about how your family may feel if you end up dead or crippled because you felt the need to 'filter'...

 

[renault12ts]

I am a driver therefore inherently stupid!!

But if a rider knows that in certain conditions (no matter how legal and correct they are) they stand a good chance of having an incident...then why bother.

 

[rees_A]

That is the approach I take. As other riders have said, I look for indicators, wheel angles all sorts. When a car pulls to a junction I try to make eye contact with the driver and I watch the wheels to see if they are still rolling.

Also, i never move into oncoming traffic.

I've never disagreed that some people do not ride safely but by contrast rees_a is clearly of the impression he doesn't need to look out for bikes and if he kills someone then that's a good thing. He lives in London, it isn't as though he is unaware of this happening like someone in a rural area who might not have a lot of standing traffic issues so there is a duty of care owed by car drivers too.

If the CBT was part of every driving test (for cars and bikes) then car drivers would be a lot more appreciative of the issues.

m.

EDIT. What a silly follow up post.

Here's what you are saying:

"The sooner people realise that some people drinking leads to alcoholism the better. Ban drink for everyone!"

Erm, I have passed a CBT, have a full motorcycle license(Had it for over 20 years) and used to ride a bike when I was younger and more foolish. That is why I know how dangerous they are.

I always look out for bikes, they are nutters so I do my best to try to avoid them where possible, problem is, they do not afford the same to cars as they think they are above the law....

When I rode, the only accidents I had were of my own making.ie. filtering etc.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Matters not whether it's motor or push bikes v. cars, these discussions are always polarized & always descend into slanging matches.

The two sides will never see eye to eye.

I understand both sides of the argument, but I must disagree that ALL bikers are the same. But then again, I haven't experienced the joys of London traffic for a while, so I suppose if they are the only bikers someone has come across, it's understandable to want to tar them all with the same brush I suppose.

 

[Sp!ke]

Whoa - some heated and emotive discussion here.

The way I see it is the road space is shared by many different types of vehicles. Cars, lorries, horses, bicycles even bendy buses and trams. Each type of vehicle has different limits and capabilities and as a driver one has to accommodate all other road types.

You'd forgive a lorry taking a wide berth onto your side of the road to make a sharp corner for instance. You'd also drive carefully past a horse in case you spooked it as well.

But for some unknown reason a few people in this thread seem to not agree with the law or the highway code regarding motorcycles and worse still others intentionally endanger the lives of these riders and try and defend such actions. Motorcycles are allowed to filter and it is the responsibility of all road users to accommodate this and look out for them when performing manoeuvres. If you don't like this then either try and change the law or move to somewhere where filtering is illegal.

When I am on my motorcycle and I experience this kind of thing I have been known on occasion to lose my restraint. If someone deliberately puts my life at risk... I am likely to be angry.... in shock....my adrenaline is pumping.... it can get messy.

I'm don't mean to say that as a threat or anything, my point is that when you have a near death experience the mind sometimes (understandably) works in strange uncontrollable ways and deliberately putting someone in harms way like that may well get you into hot water both legally and/or physically.

 

[Sp!ke]

I am a driver therefore inherently stupid!!

But if a rider knows that in certain conditions (no matter how legal and correct they are) they stand a good chance of having an incident...then why bother.

I filter all the time on my bike. In fact if you saw me riding you'd probably class me as an idiot.

The fact is I've been doing it for so long I've seen it all. I anticipate the improbable, the impossible even. I ride with the assumption that many car drivers actually do want to kill me (there's a few on this thread that confirm this). You get a sixth sense, a subconscious ability to see a few seconds into the future... subtleties unnoticed by the majority.

I'm amongst the quickest road rider I know and I just don't have accidents... I haven't even had a near miss or a heart stopping moment for oh I don't know maybe 15 years or something and yet some here would likely class me as a fool for I dare to ride a motorcycle.

Filtering really needn't be dangerous.

 

[martin_a]

The law is wrong, it allows bikers to risk their lives every time they get on a bike, how many other laws do we have in the UK that allow people to risk their lives? I don't know of any...

Going to take part in a rally tomorrow, in a car... where is the law banning me?

Going to try bungee jumping - where's the law banning me?

Going to sledge down a hill when it gets snowy. Where's the law banning me?

See where this is going?

renault21's point is that:

1. Car drivers make mistakes a lot
2. They are stupid (not my words)

I would ask, why should I and thousands of riders who are doing nothing illegal like me have to give up our mode of transport (which takes half the time of the car to get to work and runs at 40mpg, doesn't cause jams which cause smog and all the associated health issues because some people can't be bothered to drive properly?

I accept the risks. The problem here (as identified by renault21 and rees_a you seem to agree) is car drivers. In that case, ban cars and enjoy cleaner air and better transport.

Read Sp!ke's posts. The chap talks a lot of sense.

m.

 

[as400]

I wonder out of interest if the motorcyclist was wearing a white crash helmut and fluorescent yellow jacket?

It amazes me that so many motorcyclists favour the colour black.

Maybe a law should be passed ensuring they do, if even one life or set of legs is saved Im sure the motorcycling community would be grateful.

 

[rees_A]

Going to take part in a rally tomorrow, in a car... where is the law banning me?

Going to try bungee jumping - where's the law banning me?

Going to sledge down a hill when it gets snowy. Where's the law banning me?

See where this is going?

renault21's point is that:

1. Car drivers make mistakes a lot
2. They are stupid (not my words)

I would ask, why should I and thousands of riders who are doing nothing illegal like me have to give up our mode of transport (which takes half the time of the car to get to work and runs at 40mpg, doesn't cause jams which cause smog and all the associated health issues because some people can't be bothered to drive properly?

I accept the risks. The problem here (as identified by renault21 and rees_a you seem to agree) is car drivers. In that case, ban cars and enjoy cleaner air and better transport.

Read Sp!ke's posts. The chap talks a lot of sense.

m.

So are you suggesting that 'Filtering' is treated like a sport to bikers....No wonder so many come a cropper!!!!!!

All of the sports you mentioned are dangerous do you see what I am saying now.....

You are correct in that some forms of sport are dangerous and legal but I wouldn't want to do them all day every day as the risk will exponentially increase...

I don't think Bikers should give up their form of transport if they feel the need or urge to do it. I'm just suggesting that they are inherently dangerous and do not follow the highway code. How many times did you break the law or took a risk the last time you rode your bike....Be Honest....

A colleague of mine used to ride his bike to work every day and was always complaining of bad driving etc. He once complained that whilst he was filtering a passenger opened a car door onto him....

He also used to play a game called 'Smash car mirrors' as he rode past cars whilst doing this 'Filtering' very mature....He fell off most weeks and never accepted that it was his fault....'Oh, it was raining', Slipped on Diesel' etc....Never his fault and slowly destroyed his bike in the process...

 

[Ted]

I wonder out of interest if the motorcyclist was wearing a white crash helmut and fluorescent yellow jacket?

It amazes me that so many motorcyclists favour the colour black.

Maybe a law should be passed ensuring they do, if even one life or set of legs is saved Im sure the motorcycling community would be grateful.

What a great idea. I'm sure the motorcycling community would be most grateful.

 

[Sp!ke]

Actually the wearing of fluorescent clothing doesn't help as much as you'd like to think.

How many times do people not see blooming git big fluorescent ambulances, police cars or fire engines even with their lights flashing? The fact is people often don't look so it doesn't matter if it is a goddam elephant in the road, the blind still wont see it.

From experience, a deafening exhaust has a much better effect, in the same way that sirens have to be used by emergency vehicles because people just don't see them.

Likewise, you'd hear said elephant trumpet.

FWIW, white crash helmets offer very good camoflage against the backdrop of a white van. The best colour crash helmet to wear if you are to attempt to try to stand out would be the brash multicoloured race style crash helmet.

 

[Sp!ke]

He also used to play a game called 'Smash car mirrors' as he rode past cars whilst doing this 'Filtering' very mature....He fell off most weeks and never accepted that it was his fault....'Oh, it was raining', Slipped on Diesel' etc....Never his fault and slowly destroyed his bike in the process...

You dont think this colleague was perhaps baiting you a little, knowing how much it wound you up?

I think I might play a similar game should one of my workmates display such tendencies.

He once complained that whilst he was filtering a passenger opened a car door onto him....

I'm not so sure I understand your point on this one - are you suggesting you believe this too is the bikers fault?

 

[as400]

Actually the wearing of fluorescent clothing doesn't help as much as you'd like to think.

How many times do people not see blooming git big fluorescent ambulances, police cars or fire engines even with their lights flashing? The fact is people often don't look so it doesn't matter if it is a goddam elephant in the road, the blind still wont see it.

FWIW, white crash helmets offer very good camoflage against the backdrop of a white van. The best colour crash helmet to wear if you are to attempt to try to stand out would be the brash multicoloured race style crash helmet.

Surely at night though it would be advantageous?

Then during the day as in the early days of automotive the motorcyclist could be preceded by a man carrying a flag, or a small brass band playing?

Imagine the reduction in casualties and savings to the NHS.

 

[Sp!ke]

Imagine the reduction in casualties and savings to the NHS.

The NHS now submits a bill to the insurance company of the party at fault for road accidents.

 

[rees_A]

I'm not so sure I understand your point on this one - are you suggesting you believe this too is the bikers fault?

Yes it is, because if he wasn't 'Filtering' it would not have happened, once again proving that filtering causes accidents and is therefore, dangerous and should be made illegal !!!

 

[Sp!ke]

That is a ridiculous arguement.

That's like saying all car accidents are the responsibility of the driver. If they weren't driving they wouldn't have had the accident. All plane accidents are the fault of the pilot etc etc. You're not going to get far using that tack.

Besides, a car door could be flug open it the path of bike or car that isnt filtering.

Do you not check it is safe to open your car before you do so?