77mm S/C Pulley on M113K's - Thoughts and Experiences Please!

[simon1966]

HI All

Well it looks like I just can't bring myself to part with my old wagon. I am therefore thinking about a s/c pulley change from my current 84mm one down to a 77mm. I know there are quite a few of you now out there running the smaller pulley, so I am after some genuine feedback and any negative experiences with one fitted. Also what mods have you needed.

Any info much appreciated

 

[Cyclone1]

Hi Simon,

Hope you are well and great choice to keep the stunning wagon and enhance it. I loved the 77mm pulley when I switched from the 83mm/84mm version, the reasons as outlined below from my thread when the 77mm first appeared in the UK through MSL.

Cheers Jules.


Hi All,

As some of you may be aware there is a new 77mm Supercharger pulley (twin bearing) available from MSL and manufactured via UPD. It offers the ability to match the power / torque figures of the tried and tested 180mm crank pulley and as such, potentially offers owners a new pulley to purchase over and above the existing 83/84mm clutched SC pulley and the various crank pulleys and fixed pulleys.



So, does it work.......



In order to test the pulley we decided to use the same car (mine) and ran it in 3 states of set up;



1) Stock (OEM supercharger pulley)
2) Euro-charged 83mm supercharger pulley (X pipe fitted in place of secondary cats and resonator removed)
3) As above with 77mm Supercharger pulley




See below a picture of the 3 different pulleys, with from left to right - the new 77mm pulley, the 83mm Euro-charged pulley and the standard OEM Supercharger pulley;







The power and torque figures at the wheels were as follows (flywheel in brackets);


1) Stock - 423.7bhp / 475lb/ft (500 / 561)
2) 83mm -480.5bhp / 532.66lb/ft (567 / 629)
3) 77mm -509.3bhp / 596.80lb/ft (601 / 704)







Whilst the actual numbers may not be that important, the incremental gains are absolutely clear to see. Acid / Sarim at MSL took care to ensure that the dyno runs were set up as close as possible for each run as the runs for each of the 3 stages of tune were done on different days, however what we did do was do a test on each day to ensure the numbers obtained previously were accurate and give or take 2-5bhp, they were.



The Map



With regard to the map supplied by John@BFT@MSL then at the moment with the limited driving I have done it is spot on, there may be more refinement to come but the way the car drives it feels great. The AFR trace was spot on but IAT's as expected were slightly higher than the previous pulley, this is not surprising given that the supercharger is being worked harder, yet the numbers delivered speak for themself. Going forward with this upgrade it is almost a necessity to look at additional cooling, with a starting point being to split the cooling, other options around Killer Chillers and Ice tanks would certainly generate lower IAT's and provide quicker cooling in spirited driving. I currently have no additional cooling apart from a recently fitted Johnson CM30 IC pump, the car still pulls like a train but I am sure if I tried to sustain repeated runs then it would affect peak power and torque delivery. In normal driving though I have no complaints...



The fitting of the pulley is identical to the EC pulley, the only difference being I opted for a Gates 8PK1255 belt (smaller) to accommodate the smaller pulley dimension.



So how does it drive?







The difference between each stage is very clear. The responsiveness is the most noticeable aspect and with the 77mm pulley the response is instant, the low down torque is fantastic with part throttle enough to send the car flying down the road. It is certainly a worthwhile upgrade that takes the car to the next level of performance. The map feels fine and if anything the car drives better than previous.



So what more can I say.......



A big thanks to Acid, Sarim & John and the team at MSL. Especially for asking me to be the guinea pig, of which I was more than happy to oblige. To date and apart from the one Guy in the US running this pulley I see no other updates yet on the US Forums, so hats of to Acid for moving quickly and getting this installed with a map to deliver the results.



Acid currently has these on offer so check his thread in this section of the Forum. If you are thinking of a supercharger pulley then my advice would be to consider this one. If you have an existing EC SC pulley and are tempted.......then do it



To be fair it's a great situation for a 55k owner to have. There is now the tried and tested EC Supercharger pulley, which as we know and can see from the graph makes great gains and requires few other mods and now this 77mm pulley.



I'll post future updates to let you know how the car performs and the robustness of the pulley etc. please feel free to post any questions on here as I am sure myself or Acid will answer them.



Cheers
Jules.

 

[simon1966]

All good with me thanks Jules.

I have read through all your findings and thoughts a few times and to a large extent is why I'm thinking of a change to a 77mm pulley. Clearly I know it will be an improvement in performance, but what I really want to know is what peoples longer term thoughts are now they have been running them for a while. What other mods they have done and what they think is necessary to make the power reliable.

We all know what we went through initially when the 84mm pulleys were fitted. I was in that first group along with you Jules to have an 84mm pulley fitted in the UK. To say we had some teething problems is an understatement, but like most things they were sorted in time and we learnt what we needed to upgrade etc.

Do I need the extra potential performance - of course not! The old wagon certainly shifts well enough to humble most more modern machinery and I have a bigger smile on my face too. The thing that is prompting it is I can hear the first signs of needing a new bearing in my 84mm pulley and it seems a no brainer to go for a 77mm whilst I'm at it

 

[merc85]

I wish i hadnt seen this thread Fcknpmsl

 

[C43AMG]

Good to hear from you Simon. Love your wagon

 

[Alex]

Do I need the extra potential performance - of course yes!

Fixed.

 

[BeansMeansCLS]

I recently had one fitted on my CLS55 by MSL...absolutely worth it! No negatives to report on as of yet and it goes like beans out of a can!

I think cooling mods would be wise as we head into the summer, that's my plan.

 

[daveenty]

Simon won't need cooling mods, he never drives it long enough.

 

[simon1966]

I recently had one fitted on my CLS55 by MSL...absolutely worth it! No negatives to report on as of yet and it goes like beans out of a can!

I think cooling mods would be wise as we head into the summer, that's my plan.

Good to hear That's sort of my thoughts though really. What cooling are you planning? I'm thinking that should additional cooling mods be required then with all the extra cost is a 77mm worth it over an 84mm? It would be good to get some info from someone who has been running one for a couple of years and if the extra cooling is really required.

 

[Lenny63]

I reckon you'd need the cooling mate, at least a bigger intercooler

 

[moodi]

Same as Beanz, I recently had mine done at MSL. Don't even think twice!
Haven't noticed any dip in power but my driving style is not going to encourage it either, at least not on the roads. That said, I will be going for a PLM XL as a first step in cooling power.

 

[Lenny63]

How much is MSL charging these days for a pulley upgrade/remap and a dyno test?

 

[Lenny63]

@simon1966

When you had teething problems with fitting the initial 83mm, what do you mean parts such as idler pulleys / dualnpulleys & tensioner all needing renewed due to the additional stresses on them ...or was it something else ?

All good with me thanks Jules.

I have read through all your findings and thoughts a few times and to a large extent is why I'm thinking of a change to a 77mm pulley. Clearly I know it will be an improvement in performance, but what I really want to know is what peoples longer term thoughts are now they have been running them for a while. What other mods they have done and what they think is necessary to make the power reliable.

We all know what we went through initially when the 84mm pulleys were fitted. I was in that first group along with you Jules to have an 84mm pulley fitted in the UK. To say we had some teething problems is an understatement, but like most things they were sorted in time and we learnt what we needed to upgrade etc.

Do I need the extra potential performance - of course not! The old wagon certainly shifts well enough to humble most more modern machinery and I have a bigger smile on my face too. The thing that is prompting it is I can hear the first signs of needing a new bearing in my 84mm pulley and it seems a no brainer to go for a 77mm whilst I'm at it

 

[moodi]

How much is MSL charging these days for a pulley upgrade/remap and a dyno test?

Probably not enough! Give them a call, I am confident they will quote you happy.

 

[simon1966]

@simon1966

When you had teething problems with fitting the initial 83mm, what do you mean parts such as idler pulleys / dualnpulleys & tensioner all needing renewed due to the additional stresses on them ...or was it something else ?

Problems were due to weak springs in the actual pulley. Initially they would stretch after fitting meaning pulley had to come off and be re-shimmed. My first pulley came off a few times to be re-shimmed then finally one of the springs broke which luckily I noticed before anything major happened. Had another pulley and same thing with springs stretching but didn't fail. Then revised pulley was introduced with heavier gauge springs and larger rivet heads where they attach to pulley. Had one of those fitted and no problems since and that was good few years ago now when my car was in daily use. Only issue is I've been through several nachi bearings!!

I did have the idler pulleys changed for the asp aluminium set but that was purely cosmetic nothing to do with any failures. Actually one of the bearings went in one of those too. Would be better off just sticking with OEM idler pulleys tbh.

 

[simon1966]

Same as Beanz, I recently had mine done at MSL. Don't even think twice!
Haven't noticed any dip in power but my driving style is not going to encourage it either, at least not on the roads. That said, I will be going for a PLM XL as a first step in cooling power.

I've already got a larger EC heat exchanger fitted which was done at same time as fitting original 84mm pulley. Also Bosch 10 pump. Most people who had the 84mm pulleys fitted went for the larger HE at same time.

My thoughts are is that enough? Do I need to go for split cooling or maybe Killer Chiller? I've got ported heads which should help airflow and cooling a bit but.....?

 

[Cyclone1]

All good with me thanks Jules.

We all know what we went through initially when the 84mm pulleys were fitted. I was in that first group along with you Jules to have an 84mm pulley fitted in the UK. To say we had some teething problems is an understatement, but like most things they were sorted in time and we learnt what we needed to upgrade etc.

Do I need the extra potential performance - of course not! The old wagon certainly shifts well enough to humble most more modern machinery and I have a bigger smile on my face too. The thing that is prompting it is I can hear the first signs of needing a new bearing in my 84mm pulley and it seems a no brainer to go for a 77mm whilst I'm at it

Do it.

Yes I remember the teething issues on the 83/84mm pulley, but the later ones were much more robust.

The 77mm pulley has two bearings not one so may improve longevity and reduce wear. I had no issues with mine at all and don’t believe the new owner has albeit he’s had it 4 years now (time flies...), although I’ve not been in touch for most of that time.

I never did any additional cooling. On the repeated pulls we did on the dyno you could see the higher IAT’s v the 83mm pulley, but whilst the ECU would eventually reduce power, it was still well above that off the 83mm.

On the road in warm weather with repeated blasts then yes it will affect power and would recommend additional cooling (PCS spilt cooling or killer chiller) and for optimum performance all the time then additional cooling is a no brainer, Ginger55k did a good thread on this a while back with good data. But for me who doesn’t drive it flat out all the time, I didn’t feel I needed it. Your updated HE puts you in a better position provided it flows / cools efficiently v std.

JDI

Jules

 

[simon1966]

Did you just have a stock HE then Jules in the CLS with 77mm pulley? As you say the need for more cooling probably depends on driving style. I'm definitely not on it all the time, just the occasional blast and overtaking.

Looks like I need to message Acid!!

 

[moodi]

Did you just have a stock HE then Jules in the CLS with 77mm pulley? As you say the need for more cooling probably depends on driving style. I'm definitely not on it all the time, just the occasional blast and overtaking.

Looks like I need to message Acid!!

Yep. That's exactly right.

 

[Ginger55k]

Hi Simon

Have to agree with Jules, your upgraded pump and HE should be more than enough for normal driving, the least costly part is a bluetooth puck and software app to monitor IAT's, before and after pulley upgrade prior to making the more costly decisions regarding cooling.

Thinking back to my first 55 my 3rd back to back pull at Acids dyno day his face was a picture when IAT's dropped on the first run and only reached the first stage of ECU pull back on completion of the third.

Best bang for buck, split cooling using the little res (v cheap option) leading up to tanks front or rear (more volume cooler for longer)

At the end of the day it will still get you in the end, the m113k gets hotter than the sun with spirited driving did i tell you how hot the m275 got, thats another story, good luck with whatever you do.