Advice on E Class Range - best engine size ??

[DieselE]

Like I suggested it's all to do with size I am NOT suggesting one engine is quieter than the other but what new design technology is there on the new V6?

Can someone please tell us if the new BMW big diesels are still in-line or have they gone down the route of the V design?

I'm sure I have read somewhere that the in-line six is a smoother running configuration?

Dieselman, your my guru on these issues

Regards
John

All other things being equal, a straight six or V12 for that matter) is smoother than a V6. It's to do with the number of con-rods along the crankshaft being in multiples of 6 as opposed to 3 (or 4 in the case of a V8). However, when it comes to engine design, all other things are rarely equal.

Hawk20 is right that the straight 6 can meet Euro 4 emission regulations with the addition of a particulate filter. Likewise Brian WH is right when he says that the new V6 was designed to meet the latest emission regulations. An adaption of the V6 design will not doubt still be around for the Euro 5 regulations but that would have killed the 3222 straight 6.

I would expect to find that the V6 has different combustion chamber shape and different fuel system control software. In fact probably about the only thing the two engines have in common is the number of cylinders.

 

[glojo]

Hawk20 is right that the straight 6 can meet Euro 4 emission regulations with the addition of a particulate filter. Likewise Brian WH is right when he says that the new V6 was designed to meet the latest emission regulations. An adaption of the V6 design will not doubt still be around for the Euro 5 regulations but that would have killed the 3222 straight 6.

I would expect to find that the V6 has different combustion chamber shape and different fuel system control software. In fact probably about the only thing the two engines have in common is the number of cylinders.

Thanks very much indeed for the most informative post. I believe that in 2004 Mercedes-Benz was offering the straight six in both configurations, the more modern being both thirstier and more expensive. I have heard of numerous owners being told they were getting the EU4 compliant version, but when it arrived it turned out to be the more economical EU3.

It is a given the modern V6 will be complying with all the latest EU parameters. I love modern technology, the V6 is the latest diesel from Mercedes-Benz and offers both better performance along with better economy, plus of course it fits into the ML and is a great choice of engine for those wanting this vehicle. I am not anti V6 and welcome any new technology that offers improvements. I would love to see the wonderful V8 diesel slot into more RHD vehicles.

If however BMW are still sticking with an in-line engine then I am asking why? I fully accept the old Mercedes engine would not fit into certain vehicles, but that is surely a design issue?

John the 420CDI fan

 

[DieselE]

Thanks very much indeed for the most informative post. I believe that in 2004 Mercedes-Benz was offering the straight six in both configurations, the more modern being both thirstier and more expensive. I have heard of numerous owners being told they were getting the EU4 compliant version, but when it arrived it turned out to be the more economical EU3.

Yes, that's what happened to me. 10% better fuel consumption, lower road tax (because of lower CO2 output). . Biggest upside of all, avoiding paying the £600 surcharge for an EU4 engine.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

BMW are still using inline six-cylinder engines - both petrol and diesel. I suspect they stick too it now as it's been a BMW trademark for so long - like Mazda with rotary, and Subaru & Porsche with flats/boxers.

There are pros and cons to inline and vee configurations. Compared to BMW which seem to prefer to evolve existing technology (Porsche style), I think MB find it easier to move a little more radically to what they perceive to be the best way at that time - even if it looks like a U-turn or bucks the industry trend.

What do I mean by that? Well think of the switch 'back' to 3 valve per cylinder V8s a decade or so ago, mostly in the interests of emissions. Now the switch is back to 4v engines.

 

[BonzoDog]

I am NOT saying one is quieter than the other but as has already been excellently stated these statements are just personal opinions. John

But isn't the personal opinion the point? Subjectively the new V is not just quieter but much smoother than the in-line.

 

[hawk20]

But isn't the personal opinion the point? Subjectively the new V is not just quieter but much smoother than the in-line.

Ah but what if someone else's subjective impression is that the in line six is smoother and quieter??

 

[BonzoDog]

Ah but what if someone else's subjective impression is that the in line six is smoother and quieter??

Then so be it.

 

[G-Force]

Trying to answer some questions and go back on topic, i have the 2004 straight six E320cdi and one of my colleagues has a 2005 E280cdi V6, we argued about noise levels and borrowed an engineers decibel meter to test the levels, his car was 0.6 db quieter standing outside and just over 1db in the cabin ( i said it was because his engine is smaller..lol) his previous car was an E270 and we both agee that the 6 cyclinder cars are a lot more refined and quieter,and i always slagged off his "sprinter van engine" for being too noisy . My car does have the Panaramic roof option and we both prefer it even for looks alone, but it is vey practical and when opened up the front part raises like a spoiler and the wind noise isn't too bad at all....it does get very warm in the summer though if you don't close the inside blind!!!

SORTED........:bannana:

 

[st4]

Thanks very much indeed for the most informative post. I believe that in 2004 Mercedes-Benz was offering the straight six in both configurations, the more modern being both thirstier and more expensive. I have heard of numerous owners being told they were getting the EU4 compliant version, but when it arrived it turned out to be the more economical EU3.

It is a given the modern V6 will be complying with all the latest EU parameters. I love modern technology, the V6 is the latest diesel from Mercedes-Benz and offers both better performance along with better economy, plus of course it fits into the ML and is a great choice of engine for those wanting this vehicle. I am not anti V6 and welcome any new technology that offers improvements. I would love to see the wonderful V8 diesel slot into more RHD vehicles.

If however BMW are still sticking with an in-line engine then I am asking why? I fully accept the old Mercedes engine would not fit into certain vehicles, but that is surely a design issue?

John the 420CDI fan

John, the I6 is smooth enough. I had a brief go of druks car @ scotland and it was LAUGH OUT LOUD FAST. (320cdi I6), it was smooth and quiet and all you could want from a car. MB adopted the V engine to allow it to fit into vans, 4x4s, R class etc to give a wider market audience of the 6 clylinder diesel. BMW however can slot an I6 diesel into a 3 series, but they have no van like cars to worry, just 3 saloons, + 2 jeeps. Audi have gone for a V6 but thats because they mount the engines far forward and like to leave an empty space @ the back of the engine bay

On the other forum someone with considerable knowledge about MB's basically described the V6 as a t*rd and he regarded the I6s are better.

I am surprised to hear the 270cdi is noiser than a 220cdi at cruise. It would be working less hard, and I was in a taxi E270cdi and my first oberservion was that it was quieter and smoother than mine. All these cars are silent at a 70mph cruise bar road noise and are very refined.

Dieselman will no doubt re-enter this debate saying in actual fact the pre common rail diesels were quieter and smoother, and he is right, the sound from his car was really rather nice (when he gave it some beans otherwise it was a really quiet car) and it didn't half move but the newer I6 CDi is faster and the 270cdi probably a match performance wise, and I suspect maybe slightly better on fuel. With no CR system the pre common rail diesels will go on longer, so really ultimately the older engines were better £ for £ over total life. So we've gone from excellent, to rather good, to a t*rd. Progress for you.

 

[glojo]

John, the I6 is smooth enough. I had a brief go of druks car @ scotland and it was LAUGH OUT LOUD FAST. (320cdi I6), it was smooth and quiet and all you could want from a car. MB adopted the V engine to allow it to fit into vans, 4x4s, R class etc to give a wider market audience of the 6 clylinder diesel. BMW however can slot an I6 diesel into a 3 series, but they have no van like cars to worry, just 3 saloons, + 2 jeeps. Audi have gone for a V6 but thats because they mount the engines far forward and like to leave an empty space @ the back of the engine bay

On the other forum someone with considerable knowledge about MB's basically described the V6 as a t*rd and he regarded the I6s are better.

I am surprised to hear the 270cdi is noiser than a 220cdi at cruise. It would be working less hard, and I was in a taxi E270cdi and my first oberservion was that it was quieter and smoother than mine. All these cars are silent at a 70mph cruise bar road noise and are very refined.

Dieselman will no doubt re-enter this debate saying in actual fact the pre common rail diesels were quieter and smoother, and he is right, the sound from his car was really rather nice (when he gave it some beans otherwise it was a really quiet car) and it didn't half move but the newer I6 CDi is faster and the 270cdi probably a match performance wise, and I suspect maybe slightly better on fuel. With no CR system the pre common rail diesels will go on longer, so really ultimately the older engines were better £ for £ over total life. So we've gone from excellent, to rather good, to a t*rd. Progress for you.

I thinkyou were misunderstanding my post.. I am a big fan of the straight six and firmly believe the V6 was introduced because of design restraints regarding the bodywork of our modern vehicles. The straightsix would not fit into an ML andthe 270 was not cutting it,so a different engine was required.

The 270CDI at tickover was\is a much noisier engine compared to the straightsix at tickover.

I wasEXTREMELY impressed with the very latest 220 CDI but have not had one alongside a 270CDI to compare tickover noise.

Economy
I'm afraid I am not the person to comment about economy as personaly I just do not care... IfI wanted economy then I would not buy a 3.2ltr car... I love the 320CDi and think the performance is amazing

 

[st4]

I thinkyou were misunderstanding my post.. I am a big fan of the straight six and firmly believe the V6 was introduced because of design restraints regarding the bodywork of our modern vehicles. The straightsix would not fit into an ML andthe 270 was not cutting it,so a different engine was required.

The 270CDI at tickover was\is a much noisier engine compared to the straightsix at tickover.

I wasEXTREMELY impressed with the very latest 220 CDI but have not had one alongside a 270CDI to compare tickover noise.

Economy
I'm afraid I am not the person to comment about economy as personaly I just do not care... IfI wanted economy then I would not buy a 3.2ltr car... I love the 320CDi and think the performance is amazing

The newer 220cdi is said to be quieter than the old 270cdi and strikes the economy/performance balance nicely. I meant the older 220cdi (like in my car) I found noiser than the 270cdi I was in.

My brief experience of the I6 320 was it was a very strong car. Imagine what a E420cdi can do

 

[glojo]

The newer 220cdi is said to be quieter than the old 270cdi and strikes the economy/performance balance nicely. I meant the older 220cdi (like in my car) I found noiser than the 270cdi I was in.

My brief experience of the I6 320 was it was a very strong car. Imagine what a E420cdi can do

Totally agree.. We never bought the 320 for its performance, I bought it because of the excellent available performance. In my opinion a driver is at their most vulnerable when overtaking... I wanted peace of mind when my wife was driving and the E-class with the 320 engine talks ALL THE RIGHT boxes

 

[Diesel Benz]

Who's walking away? This is an interesting thread. I have no axe to grind and I simply spoke of what I found. If others have better information, I welcome it, and that's what boards like this are for, aren't they?

This is but one source of info, the Car-by-Car Breakdown section of Honest John Car Buying Advice - Home.

"Rear seat not as wide as previous E class and centre rear seat not comfortable. High number of electrical and electronic faults reported across the range, spoiling what would otherwise be one of the World's best cars. Strange "burping" noise reported by RHD E240 owner from Sensotronic brake unit, apparently due to the length of a hose in LHD to RHD conversion. Reports of leaking high pressure diesel pumps on 320CDIs. Fluid leaks onto cooling system pipes which then also need to be replaced. Tinkling sound which rises with revs on 320CDI is from ceramic matrix of catalytic converter. Also starting problems with 320CDIs. Can suffer battery drain down when left in airport carparks unless upgraded battery pack specified."

I'm not familiar with this source but have seen it referred to a couple of times and thought it was considered reliable but this summary has a few flaws. I've never heard of the the catalytic converter issue, odd if that is a common problem but in any case I don't know if there is a reason this would be I6 specific.

High pressure pump problems and O-ring leaks in the fuel system are not rare (perhaps not really common either) but these are not I6 specific. Starting problems could refer to CPS or high pressure fuel system where the fuel pressure does not rise enough to make ECU allow start of injection. Again a common problem with all CDI models. There are some fuel pressure sensors issues too, less frequent but common to all models.

If I had to estimate the reliability of this source just based on this single view, I would say it is pretty low. Like mentioned earlier, injector seal leaks and glow plug issues (not that much of life time but issues with removing old ones) were not mentioned when those should have been on the list. The radiator leak on early models, making glycol enter the tranny should have been mentioned. And the "battery running flat at airport" should not be fixed with a bigger battery, if the car has a quiescent current issue, a bigger battery does not help a lot.

The only thing I've seen mentioned (not sure how true this is) is that the I6 stresses the radiator more and the glycol leak is more likely on I6 models (only applies to cars built before 9/2003). On the other hand, it took quite some time before the I4 got balancers and since I4 is vibrating a lot more, MAF is claimed to fail more often on an I4 compared to I6.

The I5 obviously "a compromise in good and bad".

 

[glojo]

I laugh when I read some of these journalists reviews as I always wonder how many reviewsare wrote by people that have a personal knowledge of what they are writing about?

How many of these professional writers are paid to submit 'X' number of words and they just read a few reviewsand then write their own contribution.

How many reviews criticise theearl 211's for their unreliable electronics?

this forum is used regularly by contributors that want to have a moan about their vehicle. The 211 is a popular model owned by quite a few membersand where is this stream of complaints regarding this alleged well known unreliability problem?

By the sheer amount of gadgets, there will always be some folks that will have issues, but is it worse than any other model? I think not.

Again just a personal observation... As this car gets older, then the servicing will get less respected and folks will start trying to save money by avoiding expensive quality servicing and that will be when we start sdeeing the alleged issues.

Our estate is one of the earlier models and I think it fair to say thatit had MORE than its fair share of teething problems... I used to moan about being used as a test bed, BUT........ All my moans wereaddressed, all my complaints wwere instantly rectified and ALL early 211's were inspected when they went in for their early servicing. This inspection was a quality control gesture made on behalf of the manufacturer and any faults were very quickly addressed. This was done a few years ago, but we still see our 'Honest Joe' type reviews that tell us how unreliable the electronics are on the early 211's...

I think folks are better off reading the Beano.... At least we know that is a work of fiction

John the ranter and big fan of the 211

 

[timskemp]

I have a 270. The only regret of buying a 270 is not buying a 320, but you get to smile at all the 220 owners knowing you're better than them...

Always remember the diesels are used in vans, all them sprinters and vitos that are out there have 2.2, 2.7 and 3.0V6 merc diesels in them (mostly 2.2) so mechanically they are perfectly sound, plenty of them running 100k miles per annum, or doing stop start multidrop, and being skimped on service and repair.

Interior is tough and comes up like new when valeted (120k miles on mine now) and the paint stays looking good too. Yes, I've had a MAF, and a water pump. Other than that the only real nagging point is the lacquer on the wheels seems to have been put on by a monkey in the rain.

 

[DieselE]

Trying to answer some questions and go back on topic, i have the 2004 straight six E320cdi and one of my colleagues has a 2005 E280cdi V6, we argued about noise levels and borrowed an engineers decibel meter to test the levels, his car was 0.6 db quieter standing outside and just over 1db in the cabin ( i said it was because his engine is smaller..lol) his previous car was an E270 and we both agee that the 6 cyclinder cars are a lot more refined and quieter,and i always slagged off his "sprinter van engine" for being too noisy . My car does have the Panaramic roof option and we both prefer it even for looks alone, but it is vey practical and when opened up the front part raises like a spoiler and the wind noise isn't too bad at all....it does get very warm in the summer though if you don't close the inside blind!!!

SORTED........:bannana:

Considering the decibel scale is logarithmic, a 1dB drop is quite considerable and is a reasonable indication that other posters thoughts that the V6 is quieter than the I6 have some basis in fact. On the other hand as I have said many times before on this forum once you get to 40mph plus tyre noise becomes the ruling sound and nobody in the car will be able to say what engine is under the bonnet.

My car is now four and a half years old and has covered a knats whisker under 63k miles. Its performance still brings a smile to my face and over that distance it has averaged 39mph. In fact I have to go back 5k miles to find an average over a tankful below 40mph.

In my admittedly biased opinion, history will show the I6 320CDI as one of the great automotive diesel engines.

 

[timskemp]

1db is imperceptible to most people, the lowest commonly perceptible drop is about 3db. 6-10db is a perceived halving in volume.

The E300TD is likely to be the one that goes into history as being the first diesel car to offer petrol like performance, but the current V6 with the 7G box is such a better combination, and so quiet, that I think it deserves the accolades!

 

[Diesel Benz]

1db is imperceptible to most people, the lowest commonly perceptible drop is about 3db. 6-10db is a perceived halving in volume.

Off topic but when actually 3 dB means halving the volume, how come people perceive 6 to 10 dB halving the volume? Of course if you feel you have half of the money left when you have lost 90 from a hundred, I would understand that. But to me people are not perceiving the situation quite accurately.

 

[G-Force]

I agree guys, 1-2 db is such a low margin when your ambient noise is about 66db inside the car, i gave my own findings simply because it became "topical" and me and my friend had always argued that each others car was quieter...although i must admit having driven and been a passanger in both cars you really can't tell the difference, if anything their is a slightly different tone to each car. I used to have a 330 sport and still maintain that BMW's straight six engine is an absoloute peach and i prefer Merc's straight six deisel......i thought it was one of the best engines until i had a go in Audi's A8 with the V8 deisel....woooooow.
As an overall package i would encourage anyone that likes to get behind the wheel and have a blast to get a 6 cylinder merc deisel, they have tons of tourque,are smooth and whisper quite at motorway speeds and very economical for their size/weight.

 

[MUGGY]

Hi there,

What is the Best engine size and spec to buy in the Eclass range?

I am looking for Diesel, E220 or E270 and feel that E320 will be to
bad on economy.

I want the w211 model around 2003 - 2004 year.

Doest anyone know if Panaramic roof is an excellent advantage or not?

Many Thanks :bannana:

Plenty of interesting 'Off Topic' posts.

2003 - 2004 will be an Inline 4,5 or 6

I currently have a 2004 E320CDI Avantgarde saloon with Panaramic Roof but have also owned a previous generation S210 22O CDI.

My advice would be go for the 320. It is much smoother and has a lot more power which is spread more widely throughout the rev. range than the 220. There is a fuel penalty of 2-3 mpg in my experience but for me this is a cost well worth paying. I average 39 mpg over the past 12k miles using the car for short and long trips. On the shortest trips you are probably looking at 25mpg and on a long trip up to 44 mpg keeping to the legal limits plus 10%.

I love the Pan. Roof and use it regularly. I will not buy another car without !

Spec wise I prefer the Avantgarde which I think is much classier. The more toys the better. I have Heated/Cooled Memory seats & Command. The toy count is likely to be higher on the 320 than on the smaller engined cars.

I can't comment on the 270 engine but am so happy with the 320 I see no reason to consider it.

Hope this helps. Whichever you choose they are great cars.