anarchy-inc
Active Member
Geoff2 said:
Problem is, these are the sorts of things that get bored teenagers going. If you just brush it under the carpet, what stops them from progressing to harder crimes?
Problem is, these are the sorts of things that get bored teenagers going. If you just brush it under the carpet, what stops them from progressing to harder crimes?
kikkthecat
MB Enthusiast
Geoff2 said:
Against our crime figures they are still appalling but murders are down from an average of 52 a week in 1990 to an average 18 a week 10 years later
Robberies dropped from 112000 a year to less than 40000 in the same period
I accept it's still bad but not anywhere near as bad as it was .
SportsCoupeRich
MB Enthusiast
i did my dissatitation on Criminal Justice System and the problems with the recording of crime in modern day britain - with particular reference to White Collar Crime and the reclassification of minor offences under the Labour government (nice title!) 15000 words of the above arguments.
I wont write it all out for you, but needless to say it was an interesting debate about the above. IIRC my conclusion was that problems like this, although annoying, are just not important enough to warrant a leave from attempting to satisfy the utilitarian nature of modern society.
I did a few philosphy modules with my law degree and unfortunately the only way to sum up society is that its utilitarian until it happens at home. We all hate to hear of stuff like this to people we know, such as com's friend, and because it feels somewhat close to us we are appalled. However those who have never had car + vandal issues, or those with less care for their possessions ( a fiesta and not a benz) are removed from this. Deep down we would rather the police efforts were put into catching those people who stick knives in girls necks in reading, or murder hundreds of old people a la shipman.
Interestingly enough it is always fun to have a scan over my work around election time - crime stats used are laughably inaccurate. My own research may be used if i run for PM!!!!!!!!!
I wont write it all out for you, but needless to say it was an interesting debate about the above. IIRC my conclusion was that problems like this, although annoying, are just not important enough to warrant a leave from attempting to satisfy the utilitarian nature of modern society.
I did a few philosphy modules with my law degree and unfortunately the only way to sum up society is that its utilitarian until it happens at home. We all hate to hear of stuff like this to people we know, such as com's friend, and because it feels somewhat close to us we are appalled. However those who have never had car + vandal issues, or those with less care for their possessions ( a fiesta and not a benz) are removed from this. Deep down we would rather the police efforts were put into catching those people who stick knives in girls necks in reading, or murder hundreds of old people a la shipman.
Interestingly enough it is always fun to have a scan over my work around election time - crime stats used are laughably inaccurate. My own research may be used if i run for PM!!!!!!!!!
OP
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pammy
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well that was an interesting response - thanks guys 
Geoff - sorry but I do not get where you are coming from at all. What you are saying is that's OK for people to go causing willful damage to other people's property. Accidents happen and are just that - no one's fault. The case I quoted was deliberate and has caused the individual concerned significant distress. The scum that did it do not deserve to get away with it just because it was minor in money terms. As has already been said - ignore the minor stuff and they'll soon move onto more serious methods.
Geoff - sorry but I do not get where you are coming from at all. What you are saying is that's OK for people to go causing willful damage to other people's property. Accidents happen and are just that - no one's fault. The case I quoted was deliberate and has caused the individual concerned significant distress. The scum that did it do not deserve to get away with it just because it was minor in money terms. As has already been said - ignore the minor stuff and they'll soon move onto more serious methods.
glojo
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Geoff2 said:
My own opinion is in line with what has already been discussed, I believe that crime behaviour is like drug abuse. Criminals start off committing minor crime and then might progress onto bigger, badder crimes. Good parents will have taught their children right from wrong and to respect their fellow man\person. Hopefully they then lead respectable lives themselves.
You appear to have had some bad experiences, but once we accept minor acts of vandalism, theft etc we start descending a slippery slope. That is sadly what appears to be happening. On the one hand we are told crime is falling, yet in the same breath we hear how the Police are too busy to investigate minor cases of vandalism\theft and will only log the incident! One does not match up to the other. More Police on the streets?? yet whenever you phone you are told they are busy. This never used to be the case, what is happening?
Perhaps our modern Police Officer could have a tape recorder instead of a note book, then let civilian staff have copies to fill in all the relevant documents? Keep the bobby on the beat and the civilians in the office type approach.
Regards,
John
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Swiss Toni
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kikkthecat said:
They also have double the number of Cops per head of the population, Street Wardens to encourage community involvement and....
...zero tolerance on speeding. That'd make you think!!!!
Take away the Cops discretion to deal with the situation according to the circs and you find Traffic Wardens ticketing you as you make a phone call by the side of the road (see other thread!).
Oh Pammy did I sound that bad 
, not once did I condone anyone causing wilful damage, it is just that some wilful damage caused by others is just not worth reporting visa vie shopping car park accidents and now, unless there is a streetfull, car keying, and even then do the police do anything about it?
It does not follow that a vandall will always become a serial criminal, that to me is a bit like saying an occasional drinker will become an alchoholic or a canabis smoker will become a heroin addict. Unfortunately, we will never stop vandalism or petty crime and even more unfortunate it will, and in certain areas has become a way of life.
The only real way to attack vandalism and petty criminals, is to get our police back on the beat by significantly increasing the number of police. Kikkthekat mentioned New York, Mayor Juliano(excuse spelling errors) had discussions with the UK on policing and told them that beat policing was the only way to reduce crime. I have recently returned froma holiday in NY Manhatten area where the presence of police on the beat and national guardsmen was significant. When was the last time anyone saw a beat bobby?
I am not against reporting crime, maybe I am incorrect in my assumptions, but the reporting of what is IMO petty crime, not only wastes the police time but mine as well going through the miriads of telephone calls trying to get hold of someone to talk to .
, not once did I condone anyone causing wilful damage, it is just that some wilful damage caused by others is just not worth reporting visa vie shopping car park accidents and now, unless there is a streetfull, car keying, and even then do the police do anything about it? It does not follow that a vandall will always become a serial criminal, that to me is a bit like saying an occasional drinker will become an alchoholic or a canabis smoker will become a heroin addict. Unfortunately, we will never stop vandalism or petty crime and even more unfortunate it will, and in certain areas has become a way of life.
The only real way to attack vandalism and petty criminals, is to get our police back on the beat by significantly increasing the number of police. Kikkthekat mentioned New York, Mayor Juliano(excuse spelling errors) had discussions with the UK on policing and told them that beat policing was the only way to reduce crime. I have recently returned froma holiday in NY Manhatten area where the presence of police on the beat and national guardsmen was significant. When was the last time anyone saw a beat bobby?
I am not against reporting crime, maybe I am incorrect in my assumptions, but the reporting of what is IMO petty crime, not only wastes the police time but mine as well going through the miriads of telephone calls trying to get hold of someone to talk to
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pammy said:
Have to disagree with that point. There is no such thing as an accident. Someone somewhere was at fault. It might trail back to faulty design or manufacture but sure as eggs are eggs, someone was at fault.
The German police have an interesting view on RTA's. You are not allowed to move any vehicle after an incident, until they arrive, as they believe it couldnt have been an accident. 'Accidents' on roads are primarily caused by people being stupid/incompetant/irresponsible.
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pammy
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Alfie said:
OK - well reword - intentional to unintentional.
We no longer have RTA's in this country either - they are RTC's road traffic collisions
But this particular case in question was not someone unintentionally causing damage to another poerson's property - but someone most definitely having the intent to cause damage.
kikkthecat
MB Enthusiast
Swiss Toni said:They also have double the number of Cops per head of the population, Street Wardens to encourage community involvement and....
...zero tolerance on speeding. That'd make you think!!!!
No it wouldn't, if they wanted zero tolerance on speeding they could have it tomorrow. Just put the price of a ticket up to £1000.
The £60 now is well thought out because you and me and most others on this forum would just say "Oh Bugger" and pay it. If it was £1000 we'd fight it all the way or make sure we dont get one in the first place, either way speeding would stop immediately.
It would be exactly the same with these vandals. If the first time they were caught they were taken to court and given a proper sentence instead of several dozen warnings over a period of sometimes years and then maybe an ASBO it would all but stop tomorrow.
Pringles
Active Member
It is so terrible here now , I am really thinking of moving to Iraq away from the misery of those speed cameras operated by men in big white hats driving little vans with 5 foot pictures of cameras on the sides.
They have become so bad near me that they only waited 3 months after the big metal camera signs were concreted in up the road before coming out and pointing their lasers at us . Some of my poor neighbours thought the signs were a ruse and after a couple of days started speeding again.
What is even worse is that they are going to get even tougher here and stop advertising where they working in the local press. Country has gone to the dogs.
They have become so bad near me that they only waited 3 months after the big metal camera signs were concreted in up the road before coming out and pointing their lasers at us . Some of my poor neighbours thought the signs were a ruse and after a couple of days started speeding again.
What is even worse is that they are going to get even tougher here and stop advertising where they working in the local press. Country has gone to the dogs.
Doodle
MB Enthusiast
This reminds me of an article in one of the motorcycling press from some years ago (about the time the Fireblade was first released).
After having his pride and joy stolen/and or vandalised from his garage 3 times in the first 9 months, with minimal response from the police, said owner decided to set a trap for the young scrotes responsible.
Leaving the bike slightly less well defended that normal, to make it irresistible to aforementioned individuals, owner and a couple of friends sit in the back of a van about 10 yards away. Sure enough, spotty yoof arrives, and takes a pop at the lock, at which point it's a case of 'out the van, grab the little oik, back into the van'
After 20 mins, a lengthy lecture and, quoting from print "a f*cking good kicking", the young chap was released and allowed to go on his way. Sure enough, word got around, and the owner's bike was never touched again.
Not legal by any stretch, but doubtless satisfying for the owner, and very very effective. This was some 12 years ago, and things clearly have not improved in terms of police response. How much longer, I ask myself, before this becomes more common as increasingly desperate owners attempt to protect their property?
After having his pride and joy stolen/and or vandalised from his garage 3 times in the first 9 months, with minimal response from the police, said owner decided to set a trap for the young scrotes responsible.
Leaving the bike slightly less well defended that normal, to make it irresistible to aforementioned individuals, owner and a couple of friends sit in the back of a van about 10 yards away. Sure enough, spotty yoof arrives, and takes a pop at the lock, at which point it's a case of 'out the van, grab the little oik, back into the van'
After 20 mins, a lengthy lecture and, quoting from print "a f*cking good kicking", the young chap was released and allowed to go on his way. Sure enough, word got around, and the owner's bike was never touched again.
Not legal by any stretch, but doubtless satisfying for the owner, and very very effective. This was some 12 years ago, and things clearly have not improved in terms of police response. How much longer, I ask myself, before this becomes more common as increasingly desperate owners attempt to protect their property?
