Beware - Watch out for this one!!

[crockers]

I dunno about you but I'm watching out for SANTA.............

 

[The Dent Guy]

TBH I completely lost the point of this thread a good long time ago, I'm sure it started with verbal advice due to a mistaken impression of someone being on the dog and bone. When it reached child abduction I got confused.

You will notice from my other posts on here that I will never necessarily defend the actions of other officers since I was not there. I will, however, always try to put their actions into context, or explain why decisions MAY have been made.

I'm not in the habit of mindlessly defending someone simply because they share the same office as I do- Mistakes ARE made, and often more serious than this one. Such is life.

I'm not immune either from the occasional policing faux-pas

Can carrotchomper or anyone else actually confirm if police officers have the power to confiscate a phone for evidence at the roadside and roughly how long it would be before being returned?

What if it can be proved that the persons livelyhood depended on the information within the phone and more importantly, the calls received from it?

If they can, do they have the power to confiscate the sim card inside the phone too?

The implications of what could have happened to me had my phone been taken, are very serious. Its far more than just the inconvenience of not having a mobile phone. My income would have ceased virtually completely for the duration.....however long that might have been for is anyones guess It could have cost me an absolute mountain of money!!

 

[recycled]

no they do not.
They can request for phone records though to see if it was being used as the time.
If they want the phone for evidence, they will have to apply for it like other things, through a judge.

 

[Swiss Toni]

no they do not.

Just because it is Panto Season....


"Oh yes they do"

Section 19 Police & Criminal Evidence Act

(2) The constable may seize anything which is on the premises if he has reasonable grounds for believing—
(a) that it has been obtained in consequence of the commission of an offence; and
(b) that it is necessary to seize it in order to prevent it being concealed, lost, damaged, altered or destroyed.
(3) The constable may seize anything which is on the premises if he has reasonable grounds for believing—
(a) that it is evidence in relation to an offence which he is investigating or any other offence; and
(b) that it is necessary to seize it in order to prevent the evidence being concealed, lost, altered or destroyed.


Operor non puto a male in t'internetium

 

[robert.saunders]

Does that apply at the roadside?

 

[recycled]

the phone is not the evidence. the usage is the evidence of the offence. so how is he going to seize the usage?
He can not seize it for that , only if he believes you have stashed class A in it or something. owning a phone is not as crime. using it is. so he can not.

 

[fredfloggle]

He had better be very sure of his facts if he tries it - since phone company records would be available, he would have to prove that his reason for seizure was to prevent records being destroyed.

It would appear that it would be worth setting the phone security and using the PIN number for access.

Whilst I happen to disagree with the use of mobile phones in cars I also disagree with heavy handed policeman. The matter could be dealt with by the side of the road - only in the event of the phone owner not being willing to show the call register on the phone should further action be considered.

 

[glojo]

The implications of what could have happened to me had my phone been taken, are very serious. Its far more than just the inconvenience of not having a mobile phone. My income would have ceased virtually completely for the duration.....however long that might have been for is anyones guess It could have cost me an absolute mountain of money!!

The preaching of hind-sight is something that really gets me angry and if your mobile phone is so important then hopefully you have a back-up with all the current and most important, relevant information on. What would happen if your telephone is stolen, breaks, etc etc. My vote goes with Swiss Toni.

Oh yes they can.

Hopefully common sense would prevail, the police need to prove our guilt and if the mobile phone is part of the evidence trail, then they must seize it.

Regards
John

 

[fredfloggle]

The preaching of hind-sight is something that really gets me angry and if your mobile phone is so important then hopefully you have a back-up with all the current and most important, relevant information on. What would happen if your telephone is stolen, breaks, etc etc. My vote goes with Swiss Toni.

Oh yes they can.



Hopefully common sense would prevail, the police need to prove our guilt and if the mobile phone is part of the evidence trail, then they must seize it.

Regards
John

Backing up the SIM card info is one thing , having a spare one is quite another .

If the phone owner is prepared to cooperate by the side of the road then the issue can be solved without recourse to seizing anything.

Whilst I don't agree with phones and cars - in your situation if the phone wrongly seized after giving the officer chance to see the call register then I would make sure that I (a) handed over a locked phone and (b) get a very good lawyer.

Somewhat strange that you can get caught with cannabis and get less grief.

 

[glojo]

Backing up the SIM card info is one thing , having a spare one is quite another .

If the phone owner is prepared to cooperate by the side of the road then the issue can be solved without recourse to seizing anything.

Whilst I don't agree with phones and cars - in your situation if the phone wrongly seized after giving the officer chance to see the call register then I would make sure that I (a) handed over a locked phone and (b) get a very good lawyer.

Somewhat strange that you can get caught with cannabis and get less grief.

The detail is in the reading and not in the arguing.

Hopefully common sense would prevail, the police need to prove our guilt and if the mobile phone is part of the evidence trail, then they must seize it.

I am not suggesting for one minute that the telephone should be ceased, I am saying hopefully common sense will prevail and if there is a need to cease the phone then they have the power to cease it.

John

 

[recycled]

this is why i do not like policemen.
They claim government red tape stops them from prosecuting and catching burglars, muggers and the like.
but they seem to go all out to enforce traffic laws as soon as the ink has dried on the paper.
maybe if they campaigned vigorously to they government that they need to leave their desks and stop filling paperwork and catch criminals as much as they are fighting for their 2.5% pay increase then maybe they will get more support from the public, who help them solve most crimes anyway.
the miners strike/dockers comes to find.
Alright to batter them into submission.
At the end of the day the police force is just one big gang doing the governments viscious bidding.

 

[fredfloggle]

The detail is in the reading and not in the arguing.

I am not suggesting for one minute that the telephone should be ceased, I am saying hopefully common sense will prevail and if there is a need to cease the phone then they have the power to cease it.

John

That's right it is - he was threatened with having the phone confiscated by a policeman who did not seem to have an excess of "common sense":-

Then they commenced to read the riot act to me, stating that my phone will be confiscated and used as evidence. He insisted that he and his colleague saw me cupping my phone to my left ear, and couldn't believe that i had passed the front of their car in full open view of both of them, whilst breaking the law by using my phone.

 

[fredfloggle]

this is why i do not like policemen.
They claim government red tape stops them from prosecuting and catching burglars, muggers and the like.
but they seem to go all out to enforce traffic laws as soon as the ink has dried on the paper.
maybe if they campaigned vigorously to they government that they need to leave their desks and stop filling paperwork and catch criminals as much as they are fighting for their 2.5% pay increase then maybe they will get more support from the public, who help them solve most crimes anyway.
the miners strike/dockers comes to find.
Alright to batter them into submission.
At the end of the day the police force is just one big gang doing the governments viscious bidding.

Watch that Sky 3 program "road wars / street wars" and weep. If our original poster had a machete in the boot and was smoking a spliff he would have been OK, particularly if he didn't have tax and insurance and gave the policeman some lip.


I can't stand mobile phones but....

I do firmly believe that the motorist is an easy target because he is so "enforceable" by virtue of all the bits of paper he has to possess just to be on the road.

 

[The Dent Guy]

The preaching of hind-sight is something that really gets me angry and if your mobile phone is so important then hopefully you have a back-up with all the current and most important, relevant information on. What would happen if your telephone is stolen, breaks, etc etc. My vote goes with Swiss Toni.

Oh yes they can.

Hopefully common sense would prevail, the police need to prove our guilt and if the mobile phone is part of the evidence trail, then they must seize it.

Regards
John

Backing up the SIM card info is one thing , having a spare one is quite another .

If the phone owner is prepared to cooperate by the side of the road then the issue can be solved without recourse to seizing anything.

Whilst I don't agree with phones and cars - in your situation if the phone wrongly seized after giving the officer chance to see the call register then I would make sure that I (a) handed over a locked phone and (b) get a very good lawyer.

Somewhat strange that you can get caught with cannabis and get less grief.

Point taken glojo.....same goes for backing up data on your PC eh. All sim numbers are now backed up on a spare PAYG sim (obviously with a different number). But that doesn't account for the loss incoming calls, of which a large proportion are fresh business...ie I can't warn them about a temporary new number.

Lets be hyperthetical for a moment and pretend that i did use my phone and it had been seized.....how long approx before the phone is returned?

Also, Im assuming the call log is on the phone handset itself and not the sim or memory card - so had it been seized, can anyone out there definately confirm if i could have legally demanded that the sim and memory card stay in my possession ?

 

[recycled]

Watch that Sky 3 program "road wars / street wars" and weep. If our original poster had a machete in the boot and was smoking a spliff he would have been OK, particularly if he didn't have tax and insurance and gave the policeman some lip.


I can't stand mobile phones but....

I do firmly believe that the motorist is an easy target because he is so "enforceable" by virtue of all the bits of paper he has to possess just to be on the road.

exactly what i am saying. how can red tape prevent you from arresting someone mugging on the street or doing drugs /cannabis. all they get is a verbal warning, deal with it at the roadside.
the most annoying is an assault victim i watched on TV. right in front of a female copper a woman was punched three times.
Later on the bloke was let off as the victim refused to press charges ,as if that changes the fact a crime has benn committed.

I am sure they have to fill the same exact paperwork if they arrest a speeding / mobile phone guy but that does not seem to stop them.
maybe if the public do not press speeding charges, then the driver too should be let off.

The truth is that the assaulter has not got a car/address to chase him for and probably no money to pay fines for.
The whole justice system in this country is geared towards revenue generation/ collecting fines/ favour crimes that can be solved from fine collection.
Another glorified revenue office. meanwhile paedos are being let out early

As they say, cash is king

 

[fredfloggle]

Point taken glojo.....same goes for backing up data on your PC eh. All sim numbers are now backed up on a spare PAYG sim (obviously with a different number). But that doesn't account for the loss incoming calls, of which a large proportion are fresh business...ie I can't warn them about a temporary new number.

Lets be hyperthetical for a moment and pretend that i did use my phone and it had been seized.....how long approx before the phone is returned?

Also, Im assuming the call log is on the phone handset itself and not the sim or memory card - so had it been seized, can anyone out there definately confirm if i could have legally demanded that the sim and memory card stay in my possession ?

Depending on the phone and sim card the data could be in either place - I have a reader where if the data is on the sim card then I can lift it, this includeds contact details and sms data.

You probably wouldn't get the phone back until the Court case if they want to be bloody minded , but if you admitted it, then they wouldn't need it.

The only way around your problem (assuming you don't use the phone in the car in the first place) would be to set up autodivert to another number (which would cost you money but keep you contactable)

People only back up data after they have lost it !

 

[recycled]

at the end of street crime Uk.
these are the most common sentences.
Bound over to keep the peace. (what is that)
supervision order
caution
warning
community order
released without charge

None so far applies to any driver.

Drivers.
Fines
Fines
3 points
6 points
More fines
report to magistrates.
Crush car
seized car
confiscate car
arrested
banned from driving


right rant over. i will just wait till some wise guy tells me that doing 35mph in a 30 at 2:am in the morning is a bigger crime than beating up a 70yr old pensioner in birkenhead, leaving her with a broken hip and robbing her pension.

Reason is the driver who is our QA manager, got 3 points and a £60 fine while the robber got a supervision order and anger management classes and did not even have to pay the pensioner back, who will probably be going to jail soon as she claims her council tax was part of the stolen money.

 

[fredfloggle]

exactly what i am saying. how can red tape prevent you from arresting someone mugging on the street or doing drugs /cannabis. all they get is a verbal warning, deal with it at the roadside.
the most annoying is an assault victim i watched on TV. right in front of a female copper a woman was punched three times.
Later on the bloke was let off as the victim refused to press charges ,as if that changes the fact a crime has benn committed.

I am sure they have to fill the same exact paperwork if they arrest a speeding / mobile phone guy but that does not seem to stop them.
maybe if the public do not press speeding charges, then the driver too should be let off.

The truth is that the assaulter has not got a car/address to chase him for and probably no money to pay fines for.
The whole justice system in this country is geared towards revenue generation/ collecting fines/ favour crimes that can be solved form fine collection.
Another glorified revenue office. meanwhile paedos are being let out early

As they say, cash is king

Yes, I occasionally stray from the path of righteousness by speeding a little (I know there are those who never do but we can't all be perfect) - and I freely admit I would run someone off the road for using a mobile.

As I said, if you are holding all the right documents then you are easy meat for collection of fines -

They waffle on about prison sentences for using phones - why? they don't enforce the law they have now.

The child molesters are being let our early to make plenty of space for those of us who have a number plate light out .

 

[fredfloggle]

at the end of street crime Uk.
these are the most common sentences.
Bound over to keep the peace. (what is that)
supervision order
caution
warning
community order
released without charge

None so far applies to any driver.

Drivers.
Fines
Fines
3 points
6 points
More fines
report to magistrates.
Crush car
seized car
confiscate car
arrested
banned from driving


right rant over. i will just wait till some wise guy tells me that doing 35mph in a 30 at 2:am in the morning is a bigger crime than beating up a 70yr old pensioner in birkenhead, leaving her with a broken hip and robbing her pension.

Reason is the driver who is our QA manager, got 6 points and a £60 fine while the robber got a supervision order and anger management classes and did not even have t pay the pensioner back, who will probably go to jail soon as sheclaims her council tax was part of the stolen money.

And rightly so - make an example of her.

As for speeding, you are better off to do it in a car with no tax,MOT and insurance while smoking a spliff after having wrecked a pub - you will certainly get off with a "warning".

Sooner "warning" means taken behind the nick and being made to "fall down the stairs " the better. These herberts just laugh at the law.

 

[glojo]

Lets be hypothetical for a moment and pretend that i did use my phone and it had been seized.....how long approx before the phone is returned?

I'm trying to think of a situation where the phone would be seized and retained and can only think of very serious offences where you may well be on the inside looking out.

If the police allege you were on the phone and you deny it, then we can argue that phone records can prove guilt or innocence, but I would suggest that is the arguments used by Fred or Recycled and is perhaps a very bias argument?

I bet both these geezers are typing furiously as we speak.......

Before shouting too quickly, are we using the phone if we look up someone's contact details? Are we using the phone if we are playing these silly games whilst driving? I accept no one here will do any of the above but I would very respectfully suggest the phone is being used, but there will be no record, nor will there be a record if we were merely preparing to send a text message.

Hopefully if it is a simple case where the provider will supply phone records that will prove a case, then the phone will be returned. If it is a more serious case then the item might be held for an indefinite period! No good handing it back if there is an appeal?

Regards
John