C63 Vs C43 (C450AMG) 0 - 155MPH

[JBD]

I very much doubt Bentley and Rolls Royce are anywhere near as profitable overall. I didn't say that volume is the only profitable part of the market, but it's pretty clear that more money can be made there overall. Mercedes are now ticking boxes in pretty much every area, which is exactly what they need to do.

Bringing the conversation back to the C43, they simply can't miss out on that market any more. Of course they're going to use the AMG brand, they're still not exactly cheap. They've tried the whole engineered by AMG thing with theb A250 and it just looked messy. The simplicity of C43 is so much cleaner and follows the nomenclature of other models.

 

[C36fan]

Oh defo, new Mercs still feel a 'step above' most cars on the market and Mercedes rarely get the feel wrong (they've been doing it longer than anyone else, so should know by now) it's just that the n'th degree of 'Mercedesness' ) ) now seems missing....to me anyway.

The hewn out of a solid piece of billet, engineered way beyond what was necessary (usually 50% over engineered), classy & elegant but always durable & practical, including new technology but never at the expense of reliability, solid & dependable from here to the moon and back, those were just a few of the elements that underpinned Mercedes and IMHO they have been watered down and to a greater or lesser extent across the range.

The money is NOT just in volume, nor is it true that Mercedes wouldn't have survived otherwise, it's just that the Board took decisions that led down the path of volume, which as a result led to compromises in certain areas to meet the commercial requirements of the products/markets. Much to my chagrin, exactly the same scenario has been played out with my other two favourite marques, Porsche and BMW.

I'm sure everyone would agree that the Chrysler years were amongst the worst for Mercedes and the values that had been a cornerstone of the brand were badly damaged as a result. It's been encouraging to see the recovery taking place but there's still much to do and for some (like me), it seems unlikely that the type of Mercedes we remember of old will ever be seen again.

Lamenting the changes that have taken place with the brand is not the same as criticising it or ignoring the commercial implications but Mercedes didn't have to sell volume to the masses to remain in business it could just as easily have gone down the Rolls/Bentley route and although (for a variety of reasons) those companies are no longer British owned, both are still profitable businesses with a major place on the worlds stage, so the money is not just in volume.

Mark

Can you elaborate please!

 

[Yugguy]

To be fair I've never been in one of the classic hewn from granite Mercs.

BMW have been doing the halo badge for years. Sticking an M badge on a 316i so the owner can pretend it is somehow related to the real M3. At least the C43 has some poke.

 

[MarkII]

No James, Rolls Royce and Bentley don't receive the volume of profits that Daimler/Mercedes do but that doesn't mean they're unviable businesses or that they should attempt to increase the volume of their profits by making Rolls Royce or Bentley models for the masses.

All I'm saying is that in reply to your comments regarding Mercedes decision to pursue mass market sales at every level; when you said "They wouldn't survive otherwise" and "The money is in volume, whether you like it or not" - there are other car brands who have remained in the premium sector and are still profitable (albeit in smaller amounts overall) and I believe Mercedes could have survived without trying to appeal to everyone on the planet and better maintained the purity of the Mercedes original brand values.

I don't ask or expect anyone else to agree with me - it's just my take on things.

Regarding the C43 - I agree (as I said earlier) it's a model that's needed within the current lineup.

Mark

 

[mgooda]

AMG or AMG badged, whatever way you look at it the C43 is a swift car. On a wet track, I know where I'd probably put my money.

Am sure we'll see lots of direct comparisons and some surprises.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Can you elaborate please!

Just 4 words but,for me, the post of the month.

 

[MarkII]

Can you elaborate please!

I'd be happy to have a discussion with you Bruno (isn't that what a forum is for?) but your sarcastic :roll eyes: tells me I'd be wasting my time.

Shame that.

 

[MarkII]

Off to have a nice walk in the sun now - feel free to berate me whilst I'm away


Mark

 

[Deleted member 113659]

I'd be happy to have a discussion with you Bruno (isn't that what a forum is for?) but your sarcastic :roll eyes: tells me I'd be wasting my time.

Shame that.

I doubt Bruno was having a go at your post. It was more in connection with the post length.

The humour in his post was asking you to elaborate on an already detailed post. Just a little bit of fun. Don't take it so personally.

Ant.

 

[C36fan]

I'd be happy to have a discussion with you Bruno (isn't that what a forum is for?) but your sarcastic :roll eyes: tells me I'd be wasting my time.

Shame that.

Nothing to discuss no speak English!lol

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

No James, Rolls Royce and Bentley don't receive the volume of profits that Daimler/Mercedes do but that doesn't mean they're unviable businesses or that they should attempt to increase the volume of their profits by making Rolls Royce or Bentley models for the masses.

All I'm saying is that in reply to your comments regarding Mercedes decision to pursue mass market sales at every level; when you said "They wouldn't survive otherwise" and "The money is in volume, whether you like it or not" - there are other car brands who have remained in the premium sector and are still profitable (albeit in smaller amounts overall) and I believe Mercedes could have survived without trying to appeal to everyone on the planet and better maintained the purity of the Mercedes original brand values.

I don't ask or expect anyone else to agree with me - it's just my take on things.

Would Bentley or Rolls Royce have survived without the financial backing and (more importantly) technology/component sharing with Volkswagen and BMW respectively? I don't know the answer to that question but I'm fairly confident that neither would be enjoying the same success without their parents.

Even in isolation Bentleys are manufactured at relative scale these days, but when you consider that they share platforms, assemblies and components with other Volkswagen Group cars, they're actually able to benefit from much greater volumes still, enabling them not only to survive, but prosper.

With Rolls Royce there's less sharing than Bentley and so combined platform assembly, and component volume potential is more limited than Bentley, but the BMW 7-series is Rolls Royce's helping hand in terms of increasing volume.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Maybe the C43 AMG name isn't such a bad fit, as the original W202 C43 AMG used the M113 engine with a few relatively minor tweaks (by AMG standards) to lift the power a touch over the standard M113 430 engines, coupled with AMG body kit, brakes and suspension.

The C43 AMG seems to be taking a very similar approach...

 

[Red C220]

Maybe the C43 AMG name isn't such a bad fit, as the original W202 C43 AMG used the M113 engine with a few relatively minor tweaks (by AMG standards) to lift the power a touch over the standard M113 430 engines, coupled with AMG body kit, brakes and suspension.

The C43 AMG seems to be taking a very similar approach...

Actually I'd often thought the same.

Didn't the original C43 have a production line motor effectively lifted from a CLK430 with a few mild modifications?

Seems quite comparable, except this time it's a remap rather than hotter cams etc.

Plus the rest of the chassis is components lifted from the C63 in the new car.

Back in the day, that was exactly what AMG was all about, modifying production line models. That seems to have got lost in translation somewhere.

On a slightly associated subject, I was looking at Nissan GTR's on the Nissan Website and came across the following caption which made me chuckle.

That should cause some handbags to be thrown towards Nissan. But the real question is who was first with "One man one engine"? And Nissan only have 4 chaps who build theirs, not an entire German village.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Would Bentley or Rolls Royce have survived without the financial backing and (more importantly) technology/component sharing with Volkswagen and BMW respectively? I don't know the answer to that question but I'm fairly confident that neither would be enjoying the same success without their parents.

Even in isolation Bentleys are manufactured at relative scale these days, but when you consider that they share platforms, assemblies and components with other Volkswagen Group cars, they're actually able to benefit from much greater volumes still, enabling them not only to survive, but prosper.

With Rolls Royce there's less sharing than Bentley and so combined platform assembly, and component volume potential is more limited than Bentley, but the BMW 7-series is Rolls Royce's helping hand in terms of increasing volume.

When you think that at one time Mercedes was at the pinnacle of automotive engineering, at the same level as the likes of Rolls Royce and Bentley et al, it's quite sad really in my opinion but that's the route they took; volume over prestige.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

When you think that at one time Mercedes was at the pinnacle of automotive engineering, at the same level as the likes of Rolls Royce and Bentley et al, it's quite sad really in my opinion but that's the route they took; volume over prestige.

To be fair they have achieved the best of both worlds. Incredible cars like the SLS, SLR, AMG GTS whilst having more accessible cars also that include a decent performance line up. Few, if any, manufacturers can boast the same.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

To be fair they have achieved the best of both worlds.

I'm not talking about low-volume models that come to market every five years, I'm talking about the pinnacle of automobiles.

Mercedes had another pop at the big boys about fifteen year ago with the Maybach and it was a disaster financially, limped on for a few years before they gave up.

 

[JBD]

I'm not talking about low-volume models that come to market every five years, I'm talking about the pinnacle of automobiles.



Mercedes had another pop at the big boys about fifteen year ago with the Maybach and it was a disaster financially, limped on for a few years before they gave up.

I'm not convinced there is a pinnacle now. The industry is so much more diverse. Bentley and Rolls are definitely not at the pinnacle, especially when you consider that a Ghost is a 7 series covered in wood trim and Bentley use one of the oldest engines in production.

Mercedes still develop technology that's world beating.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[flango]

I'm struggling to name a piece of world beating technology developed by Mercedes most of the technology is developed for them by third parties or a reinvention of another manufacturers idea to get around patents. You can tell the health of a company by the vitality index that is the number of patents filed and number of technologies licensed to others. Strangely MB is no where to be seen.

 

[whitenemesis]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/8080701.cms

and

"After filing over 80,000 patents—more than any automaker in the world—it’s clear we pride ourselves on having the industry’s biggest imagination. The day we invented the automobile we vowed never to stop reinventing it, and we kept that promise with a century of industry firsts. Browse our gallery to see just a few of the breakthroughs in safety, performance, and design that made your Mercedes-Benz what it is or even better, let us show you first hand." (1 July 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/MercedesBenzPR/posts/539977126037436

"As of this morning, a quick check of the USPTO database for patents assigned to “Mercedes” or “Daimler” lists 4,238 patents, including design patents, issued since 1976; if one looks only for patents assigned to Mercedes that number drops to 969. Presumably there aren’t another 75,000+ pre-1976 US patents lurking about, so the eighty-thousand number mentioned in the commercial apparently refers to all patents issued everywhere since the company’s inception, to all predecessors and successors interest of the Mercedes name. " (September 10, 2013)

http://www.iliplaw.com/americaisrael_patent_law/2013/09/does-mercedes-really-have-80000-patents.html

Makes one think.....

 

[flango]

I'd like to see how many of the patents filed actually made it to commercialisation , how many were filed to block others and how many were invented by 3rd parties but MB was the IP owner. Will do some digging when I am back home.

Innovation and Mercedes are not words you normally use in the same sentence