Camera Vans

[big x]

So treat *everyone* as criminals on the off chance that they are criminals?

See big brother, see police state...

When I was a kid watching the first series of the Sweeney I used to wonder why the Police didn't arrest all Jag mk II drivers.....they where bound to be villains.

adam

 

[nick mercedes]

And if they aren't then they have nothing to fear, the system ignores them. ANPR doesn't bother me one bit as my vehicles are legal. Strangely speed cameras don't bother me either as I drive within the limit.
If I was to speed and was caught by a camera I would just take the points unless there was a genuine reason why not to, such as incorrect limit posting.

The point to remember about cameras is that they can't victimise anyone, they simply observe and work soley on fact.

But if the database is wrong, then as we have seen from examples posted by members of this forum, innocent people are stopped and harrassed.

And in any case does the thought of a nationwide system of surveillence cameras recording and storing details of *everyones* movements not bother you at all?

 

[Dieselman]

But if the database is wrong, then as we have seen from examples posted by members of this forum, innocent people are stopped and harrassed.

And the outcome was?
The Police used to stop cars on a suspicion anyway so the cameras have probably reduced this type of incident.
When I was young I was stopped a number of times and breath tested and given a producer. Being legal it was an inconvenience but not really a problem. If cameras were employed then I wouldn't have been stopped at all.

And in any case does the thought of a nationwide system of surveillence cameras recording and storing details of *everyones* movements not bother you at all?

That's a different issue, but seeing as I don't do Bank jobs or the like it really makes very little difference.
What are you doing that you need to hide away from "the authorities".
The ANPR cameras only check specific databases and act on that information. They are not keeping a record of vehicle movements.

Remember we are only talking about drivers and vehicles here. Both are issued licences to be on the road, with conditions attached. Is it so unreasonable to check that the conditions are being adhered to. After all it's for the good of the general population.
How many times have we conversed about uninsured drivers and the suffering they cause. These are the people the system is attempting to catch.

 

[nick mercedes]

And the outcome was?.

People being needlessly inconvenienced.

That's a different issue, but seeing as I don't do Bank jobs or the like it really makes very little difference.
What are you doing that you need to hide away from "the authorities".?

I don't see why my own government should keep me under surveillence when I'm not doing anything wrong.

The ANPR cameras only check specific databases and act on that information. They are not keeping a record of vehicle movements.

Remember we are only talking about drivers and vehicles here. Both are issued licences to be on the road, with conditions attached. Is it so unreasonable to check that the conditions are being adhered to. After all it's for the good of the general population.

"The central database will also keep details of peoples' car journeys for five years"

Why is the government keeping records of everyones movements for 5 years good for the general population?

 

[Swiss Toni]

Nick makes a really important point.

ANPR and the like are being done in "our" name (ie for the good of the majority, against the minority, by the authorities).

We have to be comfortable with it.

I've seen how ANPR works, I know that it has been key to the arrest of terrorists, murderers, rapists and burglars much, much sooner than would have occured without this technology.

I know that the technolgy supports modern policing in a way that wasn't even dreamt of a few years ago, and that it has cut crime by getting criminals arrested earlier (ie before they commit another offence).

It also logs the fact that I visit a certain town in the midlands with unerring regularity - for which I have an explanation, but which might be significant if my visits happened to coincide with a particular crime series and the cops realised that?

It is important that we live in a country where we are free to have this debate, the very fact of which, we too often take for granted.

Its OK that a proportion of the population think this is "1984". If the downsides outweigh the (significant) benefits, we should ditch the technology and hand the roads back to the criminals.

 

[Dieselman]

So given the upsides for the authorities and law enforcers and the theoretical or possible downsides for the general public, should they be for or against this type of system?

Is the ANPR system any more or less invasive than CCTV?

 

[glojo]

But if the database is wrong, then as we have seen from examples posted by members of this forum, innocent people are stopped and harrassed.

And in any case does the thought of a nationwide system of surveillence cameras recording and storing details of *everyones* movements not bother you at all?

Hi Nick,
What better system do you suggest?

It is the easiest thing in the world to sit in a nice cozy room and criticise.

John

 

[Dieselman]

Nick, you didn't quote this bit.

"They want bobbies to have savvy intelligence that can tell law abiding citizens from rule breakers at their fingertips."

It would appear that the Police are at least attempting to differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys.

 

[Dryce]

So treat *everyone* as criminals on the off chance that they are criminals?

See big brother, see police state...

It's terrible that they want to check tickets on trains -- treating everyone as if they might be a fare dodger.

 

[Flash]

It's terrible that they want to check tickets on trains -- treating everyone as if they might be a fare dodger.

Through observations people that I have seen being stung without tickets are not just your average "chavs" but office workers/professionals in suits!!!

 

[glojo]

Here is another question for Nick,

Your house is burgled, the burglars have defecated in your bedroom, smeared all the mess over the personal clothing of yourself and your partner. They have stolen irreplaceable personal effects along with some valuable contents.

Ten minutes after the burglary, the culprits are caught by an ANPR unit who stopped the vehicle they were driving. It was flagged as being driven by known burglars.

My question to you is:

Would you complain to the Police stating these offenders are victims of 'Big Brother' and they be released immediately?

or would you be impressed with the speed of their apprehension?

With the greatest of respect to your good self, I am saddened by folks like yourself that spout off the usual big brother remarks, but never offer a sensible, more effective alternative.

I would love to see the DHSS computers linked to the Police National Computer. There are thousands of wanted criminals all blatantly seeking benefits, all using their proper names. Just think how easy it would be to apprehend them? No doubt this is more of your 'Big Brother' attitude.

Regards,
John

 

[nick mercedes]

Hi Nick,
What better system do you suggest?

Proper policing rather than people at in vans/cameras at the side of the road using motorinsts as cash cows?

It is the easiest thing in the world to sit in a nice cozy room and criticise.

I just don't see why the government needs to keep records of the movements of all its citizens.

And with all these hairbrained schemes real criminals will just bypass it all.

 

[nick mercedes]

Here is another question for Nick,

Your house is burgled, the burglars have defecated in your bedroom, smeared all the mess over the personal clothing of yourself and your partner. They have stolen irreplaceable personal effects along with some valuable contents.

Ten minutes after the burglary, the culprits are caught by an ANPR unit who stopped the vehicle they were driving. It was flagged as being driven by known burglars.

My question to you is:

Would you complain to the Police stating these offenders are victims of 'Big Brother' and they be released immediately?

How many burglers even use cars?

What if they were bright enough to use someone elses car?

What if they've cloned your plates for their car?

What makes you think that the police even care about burglars when they can just sit at the side of a duel carrigaway somewhere waiting for people with no tax discs?

Did I read that the Met only send real police out to burglaries if the burgler is still on site?

or would you be impressed with the speed of their apprehension?

With the greatest of respect to your good self, I am saddened by folks like yourself that spout off the usual big brother remarks, but never offer a sensible, more effective alternative.

I would love to see the DHSS computers linked to the Police National Computer. There are thousands of wanted criminals all blatantly seeking benefits, all using their proper names. Just think how easy it would be to apprehend them? No doubt this is more of your 'Big Brother' attitude.

Regards,
John

This is just policing on the cheap, why patrol when you can sit in a van?

 

[nick mercedes]

So given the upsides for the authorities and law enforcers and the theoretical or possible downsides for the general public, should they be for or against this type of system?

Is the ANPR system any more or less invasive than CCTV?

As they seem to be keeping detailed records of everyone's car journeys for five years, and also linking the system into petrol stations and supermarkets I do think that this is a gross invasion of everyone's privacy.

And it's not like crimes were not solved without all this...

 

[glojo]

Proper policing rather than people at in vans/cameras at the side of the road using motorinsts as cash cows?



I just don't see why the government needs to keep records of the movements of all its citizens.

And with all these hairbrained schemes real criminals will just bypass it all.

Hi Nick,
Like I said before....... What is your alternative?

What is proper policing?

I can remember the days of 'bobbys on the beat'. The lucky constable had a push bike, but no radio, just the local town telephone box.

You and everyone else that believes this is ANY type of answer are simply living in an alternate dream world.

Are these 'bobbies on the beat' going to have modern technology with computer access?

If the answer is 'yes' then welcome to 'Big Brother'

If the answer is 'No' then your crazy.

Once a police officer walks down a street, they are gone for hours giving any potential villain ample opportunity to carry out their dastardly deeds.

I want want you to give a satisfactory answer to my example which you have decided to dodge.

This example was actually a very real instance with one of the burglars actually defecating on the ladies wedding dress. They were caught using ANPR. Again I will ask, Would you thank the arresting officers, or childishly cry about 'Big Brother'?

Yes burglars do actually use motor vehicles......... what a surprise.

In your own world is this how you imagine modern criminals walk our
streets?

How many burglers even use cars?

Away from densely populated urban areas the great majority Answer my question. What is your practical, constructive, alternative?

What if they were bright enough to use someone elses car?

What if the world was flat? Answer my question. What is your practical, constructive, alternative?

What if they've cloned your plates for their car?

What if they did not? Answer my question. What is your practical, constructive, alternative?

What makes you think that the police even care about burglars when they can just sit at the side of a duel carrigaway somewhere waiting for people with no tax discs?

How very sad that you think that. It would appear you just might have a tiny potato type shape on your shoulder?

Did I read that the Met only send real police out to burglaries if the burgler is still on site?

I have no idea. Did you?
Answer my question. What is your practical, constructive, alternative?

I'm sorry if I appear harsh, but I have little time for folks that I call 9am juries. These are people that sit back, have a nice relaxing cup of coffee, read about an incident, then criticise those that have made an effort to actually do something. If you cannot come up with a viable, practical alternative, then surely it is wrong to criticise what is in place.

Proper policing is NOT any type of answer. You must explain what you mean.

Here is your foundation.

You have SIX police officers to patrol a busy town. (Torquay) There is a large town centre with a number of night clubs, shops etc. There are numerous public houses scattered about the town, three large council estates with lots of domestic altercations taking place.

That's the scenario. How are you going to Police it?

Will it be the 'bobby on the beat'? Showing a uniform presence, or will it be the modern day fireman type response, where unfortunately the police respond to calls, but patrol when not committed.

No 'what if' No wriggling, but straight forward answers.

ANPR is used here with great results, burglars, drug dealers, plus numerous wanted criminals are regularly caught.

Regards,
John

 

[nick mercedes]

Hi Nick,
Like I said before....... What is your alternative?

What is proper policing?

Targetting criminals rather than everyone.

I can remember the days of 'bobbys on the beat'. The lucky constable had a push bike, but no radio, just the local town telephone box.

Much crime with a local police presence?

You and everyone else that believes this is ANY type of answer are simply living in an alternate dream world.

Are these 'bobbies on the beat' going to have modern technology with computer access?

If the answer is 'yes' then welcome to 'Big Brother'

If the answer is 'No' then your crazy..

All they need is some common sense, a radio and a set of handcuffs...

Once a police officer walks down a street, they are gone for hours giving any potential villain ample opportunity to carry out their dastardly deeds.

So better they're sat in a van next to a busy road waiting for people with no MOT to go past?

I want want you to give a satisfactory answer to my example which you have decided to dodge.

This example was actually a very real instance with one of the burglars actually defecating on the ladies wedding dress. They were caught using ANPR. Again I will ask, Would you thank the arresting officers, or childishly cry about 'Big Brother'?

Yes burglars do actually use motor vehicles......... what a surprise.

As far as I can see the most persistant criminals are youths who don't drive cars (other than stolen Cavaliers at high speed around council estates).

Why should everyone be under surveillence and everyone have their journeys kept on record for 5 years?

We all end up as double victims, we still get persistant petty criminals on the loose and we loose our right to privacy...

In your own world is this how you imagine modern criminals walk our
streets?

.

Well yes, I would imagine the vast majority of burglers target their local neighbourhoods on foot.

Away from densely populated urban areas the great majority Answer my question. What is your practical, constructive, alternative?

What if the world was flat? Answer my question. What is your practical, constructive, alternative?


What if they did not? Answer my question. What is your practical, constructive, alternative?].

I think that installing a system of cameras which records and stores the movements of every motorist is a huge invasion of privacy, and will have very little impact on crime.

I can't imagine another country who's citizens would roll over and allow this.

How very sad that you think that. It would appear you just might have a tiny potato type shape on your shoulder?

How so?

You have SIX police officers to patrol a busy town. (Torquay) There is a large town centre with a number of night clubs, shops etc. There are numerous public houses scattered about the town, three large council estates with lots of domestic altercations taking place.

That's the scenario. How are you going to Police it?

It's clear that more investment is needed, more officers, less reliance on possibly incorrect databases and cameras which seasoned criminals will no doubt be able to avoid.

Will it be the 'bobby on the beat'? Showing a uniform presence, or will it be the modern day fireman type response, where unfortunately the police respond to calls, but patrol when not committed.

No 'what if' No wriggling, but straight forward answers.

It's clear to me that more police officers patroling at a local level are needed, camera vans on bypasses don't help anyone other than the exchequer.

So many people must be victims of crime, but not even bother report it knowing that the police will not bother do anything about it.

ANPR is used here with great results, burglars, drug dealers, plus numerous wanted criminals are regularly caught.

And who doubtless would have been caught anyway, and having been caught will now have worked out to avoid being caught by anpr in the future...

Thus the cameras hoover up a few lowlifes initally (and get hyped as the solution to catching criminals), but end up being a tool of surveillence ready for roadcharging....

 

[BonzoDog]

Lively isn't it?
Whilst at the moment I am in favour of using technology, forensics and any other 'ology' that helps the police and I have no objection to being ANPR'd every 5 minutes, I believe Nick has a point.
What if a totalitarian government were to get into power they would then have the power to restrict our freedom, control our movements and use the monitoring systems for political as well as criminal use.
While this doesn't seem likely I would like to see safeguards, if posisble, built in. Other than that there are so many toe-rags taking the micky out of all of us in our society that anything we can do to reign them in is worthy of consideration.

 

[Benzowner]

Nick,
I think you are on a dodgy wicket or playing the devils advocate , not sure If you have something to hide, the big brother state is not for you, if you are, and you probably are, a law abiding citizen who pays his various taxes and dues, then surely there is nothing to fear. If the criminal is allowed to use modern technology, a radio listening in on police frequencies or a whistle a la Norman Wisdom the poor old bobby would be running around and dissappearing up his own trungeon without having modern technology himself.

I'm gona go for Devils Advocate

Geoff

 

[glojo]

Hi Nick,
There is no sense pursuing this your simply not answering any questions and are just making very bland, meaningless statements.

As far as I can see the most persistant criminals are youths who don't drive cars (other than stolen Cavaliers at high speed around council estates)..

What an unbelievable thing to say! Where on earth do you get these rediculous 'facts' from?

Are you suggesting that all crimes are committed by neighbours?

What is a fact is that over 70% of burglars caught in Torquay actually come from Liverpool. That is an embarrassing fact that got the local Detective Inspector in very hot water. They had to supply these figures to the local court. Your statement reflects your beliefs which cannot be reasonably debated. You still have not answered my questions and I don'r expect you to.

1. Your house is burgled

2. How to deploy the resources I set

Bobbies on the beat need handcuffs a radio and common sense

Is this radio going to be used to receive information? Surely this will be a breach of your principals? You have SIX bobbies, where is this one going to be deployed and how will he get there? (The town centre is a 30 minute walk from the station)

Do these targets have huge signs on their backs?

It is the easiest thing in the world to criticise (as you have just proved)

I congratulate our Police on doing a very difficult job which is clearly always open to criticism.

In a way I feel sorry for those that whine about 'Big Brother' simply because they are usually the first in the queue to cry if the Police do not respond immediately to their own complaints.

Just remember the mess the Americans made over Vietnam. They were inundated with far to much so called intelligence.

You and your like continually complain about 'Big Brother' and I have this image of someone somewhere reading my posts, listening to my telephone calls, monitoring my movements etc etc

How sad

John

 

[DITTRICH]

What started as a rather innocent thread to warn people of a van sitting along Millbank has somehow escalated into heated debate. As the author of this thread, my 2c is as follows:-

1 I suspect that ANPR is a nobrainer when it comes to both the insurance industry (we pay for uninsured drivers through our postcode premium lottery) and for the police (people who don't tax and insure cars are more likely to have other things to hide).
2 Like many motorists, the absolute imposition and enforcement of speed limits by cameras, can *seem* unfair when considering the speed limits were set a long time ago when cars couldn't go so fast, and when considering that it is inappropriate use of speed that is generally the problem, rather than absolute speed. What is more, the limits vary quite arbitrarily in the different EU countries and in Germany, in certain circumstances, no limit applies.
3 Gazing out along the motorways, especially the M40, one sees vehicle after vehicle happily zipping by at anywhere up to 90mph (by an large in safety) and therefore there are situations when motorists can feel hard done by for £60 and 3 points.
4 I do however recognise that cameras are necessary where there are vulnerable road users - cyclists, pedestrians. Mostly in built-up areas where a small difference in speed can take or save a life. Provided a better job was done to justify the siting of these cameras - ie understandable guidelines - ie basing decisions on strict criteria - ie not relying on dodgy statistics to 'prove' the effectiveness of cameras (the debate about 'regression to mean' springs to mind) - ie better financial disclosure by camera partnerships (eg stats on class of road/area where fines made) then people would not whinge so much.
Me? I'm just watching my postbox in great anticipation.
Les