Diesel additive and injector problems

[concordepilot19]

I always use the glowplugs for a cold start, and there is always a little puff of smoke at start up, but after that, no problem. I used to see the odd whiff in a following car's headlights if I pressed the accelerator, but not since the service. Apparently there were some faults that had to be "cleared" in the B service, 44.5 mpg last tankful, but that was froggy diesel at 63p per litre.

 

[Dieselman]

I used to see the odd whiff in a following car's headlights if I pressed the accelerator, but not since the service. Apparently there were some faults that had to be "cleared" in the B service,

Using, guess what..some injector cleaner and possibly some new injectors without you knowing.

 

[concordepilot19]

Topped up on Monday with 51.78 litres of BP Ultimate Diesel so this week was running on a mix of this and presumably 8.22 litres of Sainsburys diesel left over from previous fill. Acceleration was noticeably smoother and quiter after only a couple of miles, but performance was about the same.

Refilled tonight with another 51.03 litres of BPUD and got 46.15 mpg at a cost of 8.76 pence per mile.

Previous average for January had been 43.95 mpg at 8.43 pence per mile not including the 5p per litre discount for JS fuel.

I'll switch back to JS at the next tankfull and see if the improvement is permanent.

 

[garystu1965]

Is it ok to put the diesel additive in when the tank is a quarter full and then top up the rest of the tank with diesel ? I may try this stuff tonight.

 

[garystu1965]

Did I sound really thick or something ?
I meant are you supposed to put the stuff in when the tank is nearly empty or doesn't it matter as long as it's with a full tank of fuel ???

 

[Satch]

Putting into a partially empty tank then topping up will mix it well. But not sure it makes a lot of difference really unless you are using something that is heavier than diesel (like an oil) and will tend to sink to the bottom of the tank

Millars Diesel power plus says it is OK to double dose so putting full measure into a 1/2 full tank & topping up is my usual routine. Avoids fiddling around at the pump.

Put too much Cetane improver in and the fuel will start to ignite before it is supposed to.

 

[Wezzel]

I've always used injector cleaner in my cars on every fill up. The last was a Peugeot 405 diesel which had done 167k miles when I sold it. My current 99' C220CDi has now covered 151k. Both cars are still on the original injectors and run like new. The Merc averages 40 - 41mpg daily (20 mile trips plus a fair bit of stop start driving) and 45 - 46mpg on a run.

 

[garystu1965]

I've always used injector cleaner in my cars on every fill up. The last was a Peugeot 405 diesel which had done 167k miles when I sold it. My current 99' C220CDi has now covered 151k. Both cars are still on the original injectors and run like new. The Merc averages 40 - 41mpg daily (20 mile trips plus a fair bit of stop start driving) and 45 - 46mpg on a run.

Good info mate.

 

[glojo]

As Dieselman knows I am totally 100% against putting any additives into the fuel.

Now, to level the playing field I accept that the dealership puts in a fuel additive when my vehicle is serviced and I have absolutely no problem with that. My warranty merely states that I should not plonk anything other than the recommended fuel into the tank.

I accept that folks add extra additives and their vehicles work perfectly...... I also accept that others do not add additives and their vehicles work perfectly. You can take these examples to the nth degree, some owners have had problems when adding additives, others have had problems when they haven't.

I will always comply with my warranty and the expertise of the dealership.

Please accept I am NOT criticising ANYONE for either putting additives in, or not putting them in. I will always cite the emergency 320CDI vehicles that get driven in ways my own vehicle will hopefully never experience. They cover 300,000 miles before being sold, are serviced by Mercedes-Benz main dealerships and certainly do NOT have any fuel additives put in by anyone other than if it is put in when the vehicles are actually serviced.

Each to their own.

Regards,
John

 

[SimonsMerc]

I will always cite the emergency 320CDI vehicles that get driven in ways my own vehicle will hopefully never experience. They cover 300,000 miles before being sold, are serviced by Mercedes-Benz main dealerships and certainly do NOT have any fuel additives put in by anyone other than if it is put in when the vehicles are actually serviced.

Actually...a policeman friend of mine is the one who reccomended I use Millers in my 320CDI. The one he drives (ok W211 so newer than mine) gets an additive put in with the fuel - not sure if it's millers or something else. I don't know if that's a policy or just something they do in this area - perhaps Plodd can enlighten us?

-simon

 

[glojo]

Actually...a policeman friend of mine is the one who reccomended I use Millers in my 320CDI. The one he drives (ok W211 so newer than mine) gets an additive put in with the fuel - not sure if it's millers or something else. I don't know if that's a policy or just something they do in this area - perhaps Plodd can enlighten us?

-simon

I would need this person to clarify his statement. Where does he get the additive from???

Who puts it in?

How often is it added?

Where is the stuff stored?

Who pays for it?

I can only comment about forces away from the Metropolitan area and most of these forces have the 320CDI's serviced by main dealerships, I have NEVER heard of any force having any fuel additives. The cars are driven by different drivers and putting additives into the tank is fraught with all sorts of problems.

Trust me when I say Police Officers adding washer fluid to the windscreen washer reservoir is fraught with problems. Engines need oil when the engine rattles, they need coolant when the heater no longer works. The tyres need inflating when they look flat!! I am being very cruel here because we must all accept that we have highly trained professional officers that diligently check their vehicles before they take them out onto the Queens highways.

Regards,
John

 

[SimonsMerc]

Well, I phoned my cousin up and asked, because your questions made sense. The advice actually came from my cousin's friend, who I've met once or twice - my cousin is a Police Officer but she doesn't drive much herself, whereas her friend does.

Apparently what happens is that the police have special petrol pumps where they fill up (I didn't realise this, although thinking about it it's not often you see them filling up at a normal petrol station ;-). The pumps have additives already mixed in with the fuel, so when the car is filled up it is already included.

I guess that's similar to using "ultimate" diesel from BP in a way - it has things mixed in which are over and above "normal" diesel. I wonder if using "ultimate" diesel would invalidate your warranty, as it has additives?

-simon

 

[glojo]

Well, I phoned my cousin up and asked, because your questions made sense. The advice actually came from my cousin's friend, who I've met once or twice - my cousin is a Police Officer but she doesn't drive much herself, whereas her friend does.

Hi Simon,
Thank you very much indeed for taking the time and trouble to look into this issue. Again I can only comment about rural forces.

Devon and Cornwall is a typical rural force with very large patrol areas. Larger police stations have there own fuel supplies which are offered out to tender and tankers will regularly top the tanks up. (This force has mainly diesel vehicles apart from traffic or other response type units) There will be an 'officer' (usually a civilian) responsible for monitoring the fuel supplies and making sure the station does not run out of fuel. The fuel is unloaded from the tanker through the specially adapted fuel connector from the truck to the storage tanks and at no time is there a way for the responsible overseeing officer to pour in a 'bucketful' or whatever of additive?? I am sure your friend has given you this information with the best of intentions, but it merely highlights more problems than it solves. The more rural stations use an agency card and they will definitely NOT be allowed to purchase anything other than fuel, or oil. (The odd mars bar, pasty, kit kat etc ) Joke!!! Or if it is the Metropolitan Police, cigarettes, flowers, theatre tickets etc, oh and the odd eurotunnel excursion!!!

Regarding the different types of fuel that we choose to use, I can only answer that part of your question by saying that Ultimate diesel is an excellent fuel and it probably falls well within the specifications laid down within the warranty terms?

As I said from the outset, each to their own, I am NOT criticising anyone for putting additives into their fuel tanks. I am merely suggesting that it might not be necessary to go out of our way to go beyond what is required.

Non CDI diesels are a different kettle of fish, I believe there fuel pumps operate at much lower pressures than the CDI, but I am getting way beyond my pay scale and there are extremely knowledgeable folks on this forum that have worked on the research and development of fuel pumps for the CDI range of engines. They talk far more sense than me, and I have learnt a lot from their contributions. (hence the side of the fence that I sit on)

Regards,
John

 

[Dieselman]

is required.

Non CDI diesels are a different kettle of fish, I believe there fuel pumps operate at much lower pressures than the CDI, but I am getting way beyond my pay scale and there are extremely knowledgeable folks on this forum that have worked on the research and development of fuel pumps for the CDI range of engines. They talk far more sense than me, and I have learnt a lot from their contributions. (hence the side of the fence that I sit on)

Regards,
John

John
Where has SE97 indicated that the use of a diesel additive is a bad idea? I'm not saying he hasn't just that I haven't seen it.

It is as a result of the tighter manufacturing tollerances and the higher pressures that a lubrication additive would seem to be a good idea. Common rail pumps are a lot less durable than prevous pump types.
In addition diesel now has a lot less sulpher, especially Sainsbury's City Diesel, which was used as a lubricant before Cats were introduced.

Injector cleaners would also appear a good idea for direct injection injectors due to them having SAC and spray holes rather than a pintle and seat setup.
A pintle will clean the seat of deposits as it operates whereas an injector with a blind end and holes to squirt the fuel cannot clean the spray holes. The heat of the combustion can also cause coking in the SAC.

Be aware that a squiffy squirting injector on a direct injection diesel can cause serious engine damage, such as melted piston, cylinder head or cylinder liner. An indirect engine will not do this due to the method of operation.

Recently I drove a van with a 2.8 litre 4 cylinder Iveco engine. From experience I knew this engine was unballanced at idle when really hot, probably due to an injector imballance at low fuel settings, which is when an imballance will be noticed most.
When I filled the fuel I added a good dose of cleaner. Within 1 mile the engine note became quieter, after a 240 mile trip the imballance was hardly noticeable, most people wouldn't have noticed it at all.
Now I'm not saying it was down to the injector cleaner but...

I would personally use a quality additive in any diesel I owned but as the old saying goes "you pays your money..."

We really need some testing results on additives to be sure.

 

[glojo]

John
Where has SE97 indicated that the use of a diesel additive is a bad idea? I'm not saying he hasn't just that I haven't seen it.

Hi Dieselman,
Hopefully I have not suggested that anyone has said additives are either good are bad. You have citied one example, but clearly we would have to see the service history of this vehicle.

Both you and I have read examples of folks having problems with their engines after using additives and we have also read excellent posts of folks that have used additives.

All I am advocating is we read the terms and conditions of our warranties and then make a considered decision.

We will all give examples of the good points and no doubt the bad. The problem is the one bad point can be extremely expensive. Our cars are serviced in accordance with the requirements of ASSYST and that should be all that is required?

As I stated earlier my dealership actually put in a fuel additive when they serviced my vehicle.......... I have no problem with that whatsoever, as far as I am concerned my vehicle is serviced in accordance with the warranty, and I am complying with all its terms and conditions?

Regards,
John

 

[cikko]

As a noob.... perhaps I can interject 'something' to the debate?...

I have just bought a ... wait for it.... tuts and sharp intakes of breath to follow.... a 2002/02 plate W210 E320 CDi with 190k miles and FSH (mostly stealer).

It was a noisy old bag of poo on tickover - not lumpy at all though. I have added Millers Sport 4 and noticed an IMMEDIATE improvement on tickover - but not performance (although this is a new to me car and so possibly wouldn't).

It is giving (on mobile reset motorway use) an average of 44mpg with cruise set to an indicated 80mph (ecu reckons 76mph actual). I was chuffed... I am still chuffed... but possibly no better than what others are experiencing MPG wise without additive.

Reason I throw this in the pot is that I recently sold a Peugeot 406 2.0 HDi 90 bhp with just over 245k miles on it. I did most of the miles in the 7 years and upto 100k miles was company car so stealership servicing. The rest was done by me. Additive EVERY tankful but ONLY after 100k. French cars are crap right? er... not really... this one (maybe a Monday car!!!) was taught/tight in handling and NEVER had any injector work or pump issues (except at 220k miles the fuel lift pump went in the fuel tank) <<< disgusting!!!!

I can blame myself as I'd used dino derv all that time and co-incidence or not, I stupidly added VEG OIL directly into tank (I know I needed [past tense of course!] my brain looking at - live and learn)... and then the pump went.

So what I trying to get to -( sorry if anyone actually reads my brain dump), is that French cars have a reputation. The early common rail (ie HDi) was allegedly temperamental. I used additive after 100k and never had an issue. Speculative 'proof'

 

[johnsco]

Reason I throw this in the pot

The "pot" (ie this thread) is actually 5 years old !!

(But - Still of relevance)

 

[cikko]

Reason I throw this in the pot

The "pot" (ie this thread) is actually 5 years old !!

(But - Still of relevance)

WOW!

I didn't spot that pot thread

THANX