ESP-That got you talking! Now more clarity

[TheGrocer]

OK - The vid was great but some of you got way too excited by the pros and cons of this excellent safety system. Now check this vid for the reasons why its not just about being a good driver as the one in a million chance is probably the one that will wipe you out!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=akZ9AaFB7Zc&feature=related

 

[television]

I will no longer follow lorries with boxes on the back, the clips shows it well

 

[GeorgeA]

Another informative vid offering clarity - thank you.

I can honestly say that ESP has been a complete mystery to me even though it has been fitted on my previous and current car. This makes me think that buying a car without this is not an option.

Is there any reason why you are taking the trouble to inform us of ESP capabilities?

 

[television]

Another informative vid offering clarity - thank you.

I can honestly say that ESP has been a complete mystery to me even though it has been fitted on my previous and current car. This makes me think that buying a car without this is not an option.

Is there any reason why you are taking the trouble to inform us of ESP capabilities?

I think that is because there will always be some one that say that they can do it better,so they do not want it. As that good clip showed,there was not much room for error with the crash barrier there

 

[MBManInKen]

Those who think they don't need it or can do better than ESP, might want to watch this Top Gear clip.

Make sure you watch the last trial, at 70mph on sheet ice.

 

[fredfloggle]

I remember ages ago asking a tyre fitter about tyres for my 1969 cooper 's' - I wanted tyres which were good in the rain , and he correctly pointed out that there was no such thing - there were tyres better in the rain , but none that were good.

Yes , ESP is a great tool for increasing safety - but only when the car is driven as if it didn't have ESP . If you know you can push the car harder before it let's go (and no matter what the vids may show it WILL let go) then all that will happen is that you will have a crash at a higher speed.

 

[Parrot of Doom]

OK - The vid was great but some of you got way too excited by the pros and cons of this excellent safety system. Now check this vid for the reasons why its not just about being a good driver as the one in a million chance is probably the one that will wipe you out!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=akZ9AaFB7Zc&feature=related

Whos willing to bet that the driver of that car didn't bother to check his mirrors. It would be interesting if Bosch changed the video to show a multi-car pileup as a result of the wild over-reaction from the driver avoiding an empty box....

The Fifth Gear video is impressive though, especially the section on ice. The bits toward the end are silly though. Better not to drive at stupidly fast speeds, than to rely on a system to get you out of trouble.

 

[jaymanek]

Yes , ESP is a great tool for increasing safety - but only when the car is driven as if it didn't have ESP . If you know you can push the car harder before it let's go (and no matter what the vids may show it WILL let go) then all that will happen is that you will have a crash at a higher speed.

lets keep it a secret, dont tell anyone what it means!

ESP is a fantastic invention, it has and will save countless lives... whoever invented this at bosch deserves an award...

 

[Benzowner]

Whos willing to bet that the driver of that car didn't bother to check his mirrors. It would be interesting if Bosch changed the video to show a multi-car pileup as a result of the wild over-reaction from the driver avoiding an empty box....

The Fifth Gear video is impressive though, especially the section on ice. The bits toward the end are silly though. Better not to drive at stupidly fast speeds, than to rely on a system to get you out of trouble.

The natural reaction is to pull out to avoid hitting whatever is in your way. In an accident situation, you do not have time to check your mirrors and see if it is safe to stop, by the time you have done that, you have hit whatever was in your way. I thought the last bit of the vid was the most impressive. I agree that driving at 70mph on ice is rather stupid, but the idea was to prove a point, if it will help at 70 on ice, it will sure as hell help at 50mph on a dry road.

 

[DansSlk]

I don't see the point of this? Sure the vid's are good PR but thats all.

You would think of some of the comments in this thread and the other that ESP will protect you in the situations shown and you have nothing to worry about, I'm sorry but if you honestly believe that you have been badly mis-informed.

Now I'm not anti-ESP i think its a great system its not an excuse for a lack of driver training and for driving safely in all conditions but it can help out if things go wrong, but thats all it can do help.

Sometimes that help will avoid a crash, sometimes it will be of no use whatsoever and sometimes it will be the cause of the crash you can't just look at the vids and think "oh I'm safe as houses in my car because it wont let me stuff it into a tree" its just a computer at the end of the day and you have so many other factors to think about.

I've personally seen ESP (branded as DSC in a BMW 3 series) take a car that was on the edge of control and push it clean over the edge, I've also seen it indirectly cause a crash by cutting the throttle on a car in the middle of a junction but then on the other hand I've seen it turn write-off's into simple fender benders.

Obviously i don't see the times it avoids the crash altogether because they don't bring the car in for repair i imagine this is 90% of the time and thats great ESP is wonderful and will no doubt save thousands of lives but its not guaranteed.

I agree with fredfloggle, i don't care if you have a supercomputer driving your car at some point you will reach the limit of the car's abilities (normally the tyre's limit) and it will let go this is normally followed by a slide and/or spin and on a public highway a crash ESP or not.

This is especially true on more powerful cars where the driver has to pay much more attention to what he/she is doing because ESP is considerably less useful, if 500bhp says your going to spin then you ARE going to spin and it only takes a slight lapse in concentration to unleash that power.

Again I'm pro-ESP but instead of saying look at what it WILL do for you how about making it look what it CAN do in the perfect situation.

 

[fredfloggle]

Not often anyone agrees with old fred....

Another thing - how many times have accidents been caused when someone in a gurt big monster switches it off to have a play - forgets , and the road conditions changed? Bet there are more than a few.

If I boot my little diesel on a wet road then ESP will stop the back end from getting a bit lively - actually I don't mind, having driven plenty of old wrecks with kojak remoulds I became quite adept at it - my little Hillman Imp with a bit of a tune up would happily slide the tail in a "controlled manner" and being used to it was no problem -
What worries me is when these systems become inoperative a way down the line and send someone on a real course with disaster - or someone gets in a car with ESP and then transfers to something that doesn't have it - they have no understanding of how to catch the back end sliding before it gets critical - they haven't driven "classic" motor vehicles where finding where that limit was and how to control it where part of learning to drive ( after the test )
I fell that a good course on motorway driving should be compulsory together with a skid pan course for less experienced drivers who want to graduate to something with a bit of mortgage under the bonnet .

Golf GTI's can be slung around with such easy - FWD and plenty of power , and an inexperienced driver has no idea what will happen when things start to go wrong - try backing off in the middle of a bend a see what happens.

 

[rf065]

Those who think they don't need it or can do better than ESP, might want to watch this Top Gear clip.

Make sure you watch the last trial, at 70mph on sheet ice.

Another great advert for winter tyres, without them the ESP would struggle to work as it relies on at least some grip being available.

I'd love to have seen the same test with summer tyres on, he might have reached 5mph instead of 70 on ice.

Russ

 

[fredfloggle]

True, in the 7.2mm of snow we had last year I couldn't shift the car with brand new decent summer boots on - had to drag the thing out of the way .

 

[DansSlk]

Of course all this relies on the driver keeping a cool head anyways.

If they lose control of the car they must keep the wheels pointed in the original direction of travel otherwise the system is useless, perhaps if people went into detail on the system they would understand it more.

In a loss of control situation your looking at feedback from 3 sensors to help the ESP, 2 tell the car what its actually doing and the other tells it what the driver wants it to do.

If the driver starts to spin the wheel all over the place to try and get on top of the situation the car will without a doubt spin out.

Thats not a poke at the system its just a point to remember if your in a situation where you need the ESP (and you have it enabled) don't try and overcome the problem yourself just keep the wheels pointed where you want to go.

 

[fredfloggle]

Easier said than done for people who have experience of "real" cars , tail starts to come out, a bit of opposite lock and keep the power on , backing off slowly might send ESP in to orbit .

 

[MBManInKen]

Oh dear, there come the absolutes again: "well, it can't prevent all accidents by all people in all circumstances, so clearly it's rubbish", or the variant "well, I can think of some situations were it would potentially fail, so clearly it's rubbish".

Well, how about this (US numbers):

In Institute studies, ESC has been found to reduce fatal single-vehicle crash risk by 56 percent and fatal multiple-vehicle crash risk by 32 percent for cars and SUVs. Many single-vehicle crashes involve rolling over, and ESC effectiveness in preventing rollovers is even more dramatic. It reduces the risk of fatal single-vehicle rollovers by 80 percent for SUVs and by 77 percent for cars. If all vehicles were equipped with ESC, as many as 10,000 fatal crashes could be avoided each year.

and

Yes. Losses under collision coverage are about 15 percent lower for vehicles with ESC than for predecessor models without it, according to an analysis by the Highway Loss Data Institute. ESC doesn't have much effect on liability claims filed when an at-fault driver damages someone else's car or property or the frequency of personal injury claims filed to cover medical expenses. These findings track police-reported crashes, which show little effect of ESC on the risk of low-severity multiple-vehicle crashes.

From here.

So, let me see if I get this right: ESP can help save real people's lives and even reduce the severity of cases where there is still an impact.

So, just because we have some other gripe about driver education or because it's not a magic wand that can suddenly prevent all accidents by all people in all situations, we'll rubbish it?

Well, I could just say: do as you please, stick your heads in the sand if you're so inclined, I'll just make sure I get it, as I value the safety of my family and myself over what it might do to my driver's pride to admit I have a car with ESP.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work either, because I could still be killed by some moron who decided he was such an expert driver (*) that he didn't need it and ends up smashing into me on an occasion where ESP could have made the difference.

(*) When was the last time you heard anyone say they were an average or even below average driver? It seems that the ESP debate is flushing out quite a brigade of infallible, invincible experts - paranormal too, as they are able to predict anything that could happen anywhere at any time.

 

[fredfloggle]

Oh dear, there come the absolutes again: "well, it can't prevent all accidents by all people in all circumstances, so clearly it's rubbish", or the variant "well, I can think of some situations were it would potentially fail, so clearly it's rubbish".

Well, how about this (US numbers):



and



From here.

So, let me see if I get this right: ESP can help save real people's lives and even reduce the severity of cases where there is still an impact.

So, just because we have some other gripe about driver education or because it's not a magic wand that can suddenly prevent all accidents by all people in all situations, we'll rubbish it?

Well, I could just say: do as you please, stick your heads in the sand if you're so inclined, I'll just make sure I get it, as I value the safety of my family and myself over what it might do to my driver's pride to admit I have a car with ESP.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work either, because I could still be killed by some moron who decided he was such an expert driver (*) that he didn't need it and ends up smashing into me on an occasion where ESP could have made the difference.

(*) When was the last time you heard anyone say they were an average or even below average driver? It seems that the ESP debate is flushing out quite a brigade of infallible, invincible experts - paranormal too, as they are able to predict anything that could happen anywhere at any time.

I think you will find that people were only considering the potential downfalls with the system rather than "rubbishing" it -
It is clear that ESP within limits is a safety aid - however it encourages the Stirling Mosses amongst us to push the car harder than normal and when it does let go they will never catch it .

I think it is unnecessary to make the comment "absolute moron" - you could just as easily get mashed by a Skipwagon - or for that matter someone who instead of backing off after getting a warning kept charging on because they thought ESP will save them from everything - that would be the ultimate insult for someone who thinks people are morons because they consider that there are actually downsides to every "safety" system.

 

[MBManInKen]

Ihowever it encourages the Stirling Mosses amongst us to push the car harder than normal and when it does let go they will never catch it .

From looking at what happens on the roads, it seems to me that the people you refer to don't need the stimulus of ESP to delude themselves.

that would be the ultimate insult for someone who thinks people are morons because they consider that there are actually downsides to every "safety" system.

Close but no cigar. Have another try and see if this time you can spot the scope of my reference to "morons". Tip: it doesn't relate to people who contemplate downside to a a given system.

 

[DansSlk]

Oh dear, there come the absolutes again: "well, it can't prevent all accidents by all people in all circumstances, so clearly it's rubbish", or the variant "well, I can think of some situations were it would potentially fail, so clearly it's rubbish".

Well, how about this (US numbers):



and



From here.

So, let me see if I get this right: ESP can help save real people's lives and even reduce the severity of cases where there is still an impact.

So, just because we have some other gripe about driver education or because it's not a magic wand that can suddenly prevent all accidents by all people in all situations, we'll rubbish it?

Well, I could just say: do as you please, stick your heads in the sand if you're so inclined, I'll just make sure I get it, as I value the safety of my family and myself over what it might do to my driver's pride to admit I have a car with ESP.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work either, because I could still be killed by some moron who decided he was such an expert driver (*) that he didn't need it and ends up smashing into me on an occasion where ESP could have made the difference.

(*) When was the last time you heard anyone say they were an average or even below average driver? It seems that the ESP debate is flushing out quite a brigade of infallible, invincible experts - paranormal too, as they are able to predict anything that could happen anywhere at any time.

Wow hey man I'm not calling myself an expert ESP has saved my ass before now, neither am i calling it useless far from it in fact it's very good and i said that in my post.

I only ever drive in ESP Off mode when i need to get some wheel spin and now my car is modded thats never because its not used in bad weather and i only engage "Dyno Mode" on the track when i know that if i make a mistake i only have grass to slide onto.

How about you properly read peoples post's before you go mouthing off, I've just read mine back to myself no and nowhere does it say ESP is rubbish and I'm such a good driver its almost scary because ESP is not rubbish and i'm not an awesome driver.

I spend a lot of time on the track so i think on a dry road i'm slightly above average but on a wet road i think i fit right into the middle of the pack.

What i did say is ESP is a tool that can help prevent accidents or reduce the severity of the accident should it be unavoidable but it should not be assumed that it will perform as advertised 100% of the time and can guarantee you wont have a crash.

Just take a look at rf065's post - tyres tyres tyres a good set will do so much more to prevent a crash than ESP ever can but it seems you have just glazed over that because its outside of what you have already accepted as fact i.e Your safe at all times because of ESP.

 

[DansSlk]

Easier said than done for people who have experience of "real" cars , tail starts to come out, a bit of opposite lock and keep the power on , backing off slowly might send ESP in to orbit .

Your right its much easier said than done.