EV's and battery damage & other woes means I wont buy one

[Bellow]

Lol....you need to do a bit more research....I bet you think hydrogen is a good idea too.

If you aid the slightest attention to anything other than your own opinions you'd know I'm an ardent critic of hydrogen.

Both use massive amounts of energy in the way of electricity to make that until we get to the point that we have more supplus renewable electricity than we know what to do with it will never be viable.

The aim is to have an abundance of renewably generated electricity and instead of pouring it into prohibitively consumptive battery production and EV recharging there would be enough for refining bio-fuels. Bio-fuels - not synthetic fuels - which are consumptive of electricity to produce.

Even then, you make it and then burn it in and ICE engine at about 30 percent efficiency (on top of all the losses involved in its manufacture) outs probably about 15 percent existent. Take that same electricity and run a car directly on it and it's over 90 percent efficiency. Its not even close to being efficient to burn anything in an ICE.....energy or carbon wise.

Your argument requires a thorough revamp. Taking the CO2 intensive (unless renewable energy is used exclusively - is it?) production of the car's battery goes nowhere close to providing an accurate assessment. Not until you factor in recharging losses at every recharge event and, the CO2 emissions associated with the batteries required for the fast recharging (without which EVs are doomed) do you have accurate data for comparison with ICE. Every new piece of infrastructure required for EV use should have its CO2 emissions allocated to EV electrical consumption.
Re ICE. You and everyone else fail to grasp the very simple fact that an engine running on bio-fuel doesn't need to deliver the last word in thermal efficiency because the fuel being used is carbon neutral. It really (beyond logistics) doesn't matter how much fuel it consumes (though efficiency shouldn't be neglected) and, because of that, it doesn't have to be the abortion that diesels morphed into when thermal efficiency was pursued over all else. Thus, engines for bio-fuels can be much cheaper to produce than diesels on fossil fuels. Further, the existing fuel handling network can be repurposed without the massive financial and carbon cost of electrifying for EV. Consider the cost of each (ICE vs EV) and ask which the public look best placed to finance.

I don't like EVs......but you are really just making a big deal of things that will never affect 90 percent of users. Over 80 percent of all charging is done at home so the problems you suggest about charging don't exist for most EV owners.

80% charge at home. Of course they do because those who cannot wont buy/lease an EV and are not part of the 100%.

TBH....not sure why I bother....the anti's are not going to change their views....why let facts get in the way. No posting on any that EV based from now on....yes I said it before....mean it this time!

The 'antis' as you put it have concerns. The pro EV minority are coming on like the expression 'no prude like a reformed whore' as if they are saving the planet (with two notable exceptions here) where in reality they have made one minor change and obvious to all is that that is their first and last change in reducing their carbon footprint - and it doesn't even touch the sides of what is required.

 

[Bellow]

Start by looking at how unsuccessful and heavily criticised the range extender concept was when BMW pioneered the it at the end of the Noughties. And those were cars that COULD be plugged into mains electricity and then also be topped up at one of the UK's 8,000 petrol stations.

Unsuccessful yes - but heavily criticised? By whom and why?
IMO the RE in BMW's I3 was flawed for two reasons. Firstly by detuning a complex engine they used an engine much more costly and bulky than was required. Secondly - and this was a consequence of Californian regs that BMW never eradicated for the rest of the world market - was the poor range of the RE due to low fuel tankage.
I can't help but think that EV with RE is a promising route with possibly a choice of battery capacity to RE capability ratio available for the same model.
For those who do longer trips, a lower battery capacity to RE capability ratio (note, IC on motorways doesn't have its range depleted by internal heating and, the lower installed battery capacity has a lower CO2 footprint from the outset) and a higher battery capacity to RE capability ratio for more urban use - but still with the capability to travel further without the need to recharge (if proving difficult) and for sure, the complete elimination of range anxiety. Both would have (as primarily a BEV) have external recharging capability (such that exclusive use of electricity is viable).
Possibly there's a (serial) hybrid out there doing this already but criticising a hybrid for not being able to exactly match a diesel's mpg figures during motorway use is somewhat pointless (but prevalent) as the diesel doesn't (and won't until it changes fuel source from fossil to renewable) make any concession to the environment. An ICE as RE would look very different from the ICEs currently in use - which really don't have much (read none) developmental headroom left.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Unsuccessful yes - but heavily criticised? By whom and why?
IMO the RE in BMW's I3 was flawed for two reasons. Firstly by detuning a complex engine they used an engine much more costly and bulky than was required. Secondly - and this was a consequence of Californian regs that BMW never eradicated for the rest of the world market - was the poor range of the RE due to low fuel tankage.
I can't help but think that EV with RE is a promising route with possibly a choice of battery capacity to RE capability ratio available for the same model.
For those who do longer trips, a lower battery capacity to RE capability ratio (note, IC on motorways doesn't have its range depleted by internal heating and, the lower installed battery capacity has a lower CO2 footprint from the outset) and a higher battery capacity to RE capability ratio for more urban use - but still with the capability to travel further without the need to recharge (if proving difficult) and for sure, the complete elimination of range anxiety. Both would have (as primarily a BEV) have external recharging capability (such that exclusive use of electricity is viable).
Possibly there's a (serial) hybrid out there doing this already but criticising a hybrid for not being able to exactly match a diesel's mpg figures during motorway use is somewhat pointless (but prevalent) as the diesel doesn't (and won't until it changes fuel source from fossil to renewable) make any concession to the environment. An ICE as RE would look very different from the ICEs currently in use - which really don't have much (read none) developmental headroom left.

I refer you to the commercial failure of the I3 and I8, and the conscious decision of all the other car companies to take up the Range Extender concept, criticising the duplication of drive units, the dreadful engine whine and, of course, their non-zero emission.

But great idea. Develop a completely different EV vehicle, powered by a non-existent global distribution network of Hydrogen. Instead of running a BEV whose batteries can be charged cheaply from any mains outlet in the world.

 

[BTB 500]

Assuming that you can overcome the public's reluctance to using EV's by "cheaply creating an EV powered by a Hydrogen fuel cell range extender, fuelled by a non-existent global network of hydrogen fuel service stations" is in the same league.

Obviously commercials are different because of the weight issue, but still no sign of it reaching passenger vehicles in volume.

Strange that Toyota, Hyundai, BMW and Renault would all be making the same terrible mistake of investing in FCEVs though.

As mentioned pure BEV technology doesn't work for a large majority of commercial truck & van usage. If a hydrogen distribution network is put in place to support that then why wouldn't private cars also leverage it? Currently it's chicken & egg - there would be "no sign" of BEV technology "reaching passenger vehicles in volume" without charging sites.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Strange that Toyota, Hyundai, BMW and Renault would all be making the same terrible mistake of investing in FCEVs though.

As mentioned pure BEV technology doesn't work for a large majority of commercial truck & van usage. If a hydrogen distribution network is put in place to support that then why wouldn't private cars also leverage it? Currently it's chicken & egg - there would be "no sign" of BEV technology "reaching passenger vehicles in volume" without charging sites.

Great !

Let us know when Toyota, Hyundai, BMW, and Renault start building all those factories so that they can deliver passenger FCEVs in volume later this decade, or even next.

 

[Bellow]

I refer you to the commercial failure of the I3 and I8, and the conscious decision of all the other car companies to take up the Range Extender concept, criticising the duplication of drive units, the dreadful engine whine and, of course, their non-zero emission.

The 'non zero emissions' is solvable (bio-fuel and zero NOx engine tech), of the other criticisms one smacks of OEM's interests ahead of customers', the other - pure ICE can be silenced - so can RE. I still have the lingering thought that the mandated limited fuel tankage played a part. As though there to kill the RE before it gained traction.

But great idea. Develop a completely different EV vehicle, powered by a non-existent global distribution network of Hydrogen. Instead of running a BEV whose batteries can be charged cheaply from any mains outlet in the world.

Fuel cells are a different ball game. REs don't have to be fuel cells. Simple, light, compact, cheap (the more so if a single-speed engine driving only an alternator) ICE running on bio-fuel is perfect. Maybe the inability to see past complex, heavy, bulky and expensive 4 strokes is why RE is doomed. Just build a bigger battery with the cash saved. Pretty one-dimensional thinking that IMO isn't really working but for a small fraction of the motoring public.

 

[markjay]

The 'non zero emissions' is solvable (bio-fuel and zero NOx engine tech)....

That's the theory, but on a practical level, I think that part of the issue is that the last attempt to solve this, led to Dieselgate and AdBlue, two very bad things, and it's unlikely that automakers will be given another chance to have a go at solving it. And so the reality is that ICE is a dead man walking.

 

[BTB 500]

Great !

Let us know when Toyota, Hyundai, BMW, and Renault start building all those factories so that they can deliver passenger FCEVs in volume later this decade, or even next.

Actually I think they already have factories

They would presumably just switch production capacity from discontinued ICE and ICE Hybrid models to FCEVs. Of course two of those companies are already making them (Toyota continuously since late 2014), so ramping up production shouldn't be that difficult.

 

[markjay]

Where is the best and worst place in Britain to own an electric car?

Areas such as Sutton, Croydon, London, Coventry and Edinburgh are all well prepared for the ongoing roll-out of electric vehicles, according to new research.

mol.im

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Actually I think they already have factories

They would presumably just switch production capacity from discontinued ICE and ICE Hybrid models to FCEVs. Of course two of those companies are already making them (Toyota continuously since late 2014), so ramping up production shouldn't be that difficult.

Dang ! Easy. Let us know when that production starts.

Will you be setting up a Hydrogen manufacturing operation yourself, to ride this innovation wave? How hard could it be?

Thank the Lord that you two found a way of persuading all those Diesel owning sceptics of "soulless EV's" to convert to FCEV !

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Where is the best and worst place in Britain to own an electric car?

Areas such as Sutton, Croydon, London, Coventry and Edinburgh are all well prepared for the ongoing roll-out of electric vehicles, according to new research.

mol.im

Chuckle. Great headline.

Not a lot of logic behind it.

 

[BTB 500]

Let us know when that production starts.

That was back in 2014 for the Toyota Mirai, and 2018 for the Hyundai Nexo. BMW have only built 100 iX5s so far though (incidentally these use Toyota's fuel cell).

Will you be setting up a Hydrogen manufacturing operation yourself, to ride this innovation wave?

That's been in hand for a while now:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1092353/hydrogen-sector-development-action-plan.pdf

 

[markjay]

Chuckle. Great headline.

Not a lot of logic behind it.

I think that the issue is that knowing the density of public chargers 'per city' is not helpful in itself, because you are unlikely to charge your car at the other side of town, and what actually matters is the availability of public chargers in your neighbourhood, not in your city. Additionally, public chargers are more important where people do not have off street parking and can install private chargers. But where there are houses with drives, or tower blocks with off street parking, there's less dependancy on public chargers.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That was back in 2014 for the Toyota Mirai, and 2018 for the Hyundai Nexo. BMW have only built 100 iX5s so far though (incidentally these use Toyota's fuel cell).

That's been in hand for a while now:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1092353/hydrogen-sector-development-action-plan.pdf

Yes, I drove the Mirai in 2015, as I mentioned before. A lovely £80k four seater with ambitions to compete with a BMW 5 seater. A huge commercial failure globally. Nobody wanted it. (Just 100 Mirai’s are still licensed in the UK - probably all sitting in Toyota and research organisations)

The request was to let us know when they start building factories to build and sell passenger FCEV’s in commercial volumes.

(It would help to know if they ever get round to having more than a dozen fuel stations in the UK.)

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That's been in hand for a while now:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1092353/hydrogen-sector-development-action-plan.pdf

Thanks for showing the latest version of the Government’s Hydrogen sector plan.

Do let us know when any work actually takes place to build Hydrogen fuel stations next decade, or whenever.

Paying consultants to write a plan does not mean that Government or private sector action will happen any time soon. Especially with a new government getting its feet under the table this Autumn.

Hard to sell an FCEV Government policy to the typical Labour electorate who prefer shorter term deliverables that don’t take money from Education, Our NHS etc etc.

 

[Bellow]

That's the theory, but on a practical level, I think that part of the issue is that the last attempt to solve this, led to Dieselgate and AdBlue, two very bad things,

The failure there though was trying to make a technology (4-stroke diesel) do something it couldn't (instead of shifting to a better concept) and then lying/cheating to make it look like it could.

and it's unlikely that automakers will be given another chance to have a go at solving it. And so the reality is that ICE is a dead man walking.

Yet, we are reliant on those very same corporations/people to deliver viable mobility from an infant technology when they had to cheat their way through a mature technology. Hardly inspiring but I agree, the whole Dieselgate episode left the European auto industry a sitting duck for prescriptive legislation. It failed us on so many levels.

 

[BTB 500]

Yes, I drove the Mirai in 2015, as I mentioned before. A lovely £80k four seater with ambitions to compete with a BMW 5 seater. A huge commercial failure globally. Nobody wanted it. (Just 100 Mirai’s are still licensed in the UK - probably all sitting in Toyota and research organisations)

As I'm sure you know Toyota released a new model in 2020, so it's odd that you refer to the car in the past tense?

Toyota Mirai. Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle

The Mirai provides a remarkably quiet drive. Revolutionary Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology delivers true 0 emissions motoring. Buy yours online today | Toyota

www.toyota.co.uk

I know the Lexus-based gen 2 is actually cheaper than the Prius-based gen 1, but it wasn't ever an £80k car AFAIK ... per Autocar in 2021:

When we road tested the Mk1 Mirai in 2016, it came in one trim level and at a cost of £66,000. Five years later, the new model can be had for a fiver under £50,000, which is a broadly competitive price for any luxury saloon of its size in 2021 and just under £20,000 less than the Hyundai Nexo FCEV. At that price, Toyota must still be subsidising the business case of this car significantly; but, clearly taking a long-term view, it must see both strategic and financial value in doing so.

I assume the UK isn't really a target market (yet) due to the current lack of infrastructure (chicken & egg, as I've said before). But it sells in bigger numbers elsewhere - mostly the US and Japan. Still early days though.

 

[BTB 500]

Do let us know when any work actually takes place to build Hydrogen fuel stations next decade, or whenever.

Paying consultants to write a plan does not mean that Government or private sector action will happen any time soon. Especially with a new government getting its feet under the table this Autumn.

Did you read the recent Autocar article I linked to?

A plan to create a nationwide network of hydrogen refuelling stations has taken its first steps into becoming a reality as part of a £8 million UK government grant, with the first to open "early next year".

Initially, four stations will be built by British start-up Element 2 which will be publicly available to drivers of both HGVs (the government is targeting supermarket delivery trucks) and cars.

Although their main focus will be on commercial vehicles, and therefore locating these pumping sites at truck stops, this also means cars like the Toyota Mirai, Hyundai Nexo and new BMW iX5 Hydrogen will be able to use Element 2’s pumping technology.

Last July, the firm announced its first two sites with planning permission approved, at Coneygarth on the A1 (near Northallerton) and on the M6 near Carlisle.

“The strategy is that we have the infrastructure first, ideally in place next year, before these vehicles arrive in numbers,” Harper said. “There's a wave of [commercial] hydrogen vehicles coming. It's a question of when, not if, and to be honest, with this funding, we now know the when.

“This funding gives us the seal of confidence, as it's public money that has gone through a lot of scrutiny before reaching us.”

Harper added that funding for “some of the other stations” has also already been secured.

It also contained some interesting (to me, anyway) technical info. The new sites are relatively simple/cheap to set up as the hydrogen pumps are supplied by 40' compressed-gas tanker trailers kept on site and replaced as necessary from a central depot. So there's less infrastructure to install, and no transferring of gas deliveries to on-site storage.

As mentioned widespread use of hydrogen IS coming - there's simply no other practical option for the majority of commercial vehicle traffic. Don't be a "hydrogen hater" - embrace the change

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

As I'm sure you know Toyota released a new model in 2020, so it's odd that you refer to the car in the past tense?

Toyota Mirai. Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle

The Mirai provides a remarkably quiet drive. Revolutionary Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology delivers true 0 emissions motoring. Buy yours online today | Toyota

www.toyota.co.uk

I know the Lexus-based gen 2 is actually cheaper than the Prius-based gen 1, but it wasn't ever an £80k car AFAIK ... per Autocar in 2021:



I assume the UK isn't really a target market (yet) due to the current lack of infrastructure (chicken & egg, as I've said before). But it sells in bigger numbers elsewhere - mostly the US and Japan. Still early days though.

Excellent. So it doesn’t sell in the UK.

How many Mirai have been sold in Japan or the States then? “The States” as in that country where EV take up is half the level of UK EV sales.

 

[BTB 500]

Excellent. So it doesn’t sell in the UK.

James May has had two (a gen 1 and a gen2)

How many Mirai have been sold in Japan or the States then? “The States” as in that country where EV take up is half the level of UK EV sales.

Not particularly up to date but

As of November 2022, global sales totaled 21,475 units; the top-selling markets were the U.S. with 11,368 units, Japan with 7,435 and the rest of the world with 2,622

Toyota Mirai - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org