EV's and battery damage & other woes means I wont buy one

[Will]

Actually about 43 people run their cars out of fuel every day....obviously stoopid people but even so!

43 cars run out of fuel per day | Autocar

Highways Agency urges motorists to be more careful

www.autocar.co.uk

In reality, in a sample of 13,000 electric vehicle breakdowns attended by the AA, less than four percent were due to the driving battery being flat.

AA reports huge decline in electric vehicles running out of charge

The proportion of electric vehicles (EVs) running out of charge over the past few years has fallen by more than 70%, according to the AA.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

You changed your post, but even so had a little look myself and there’s a variety of sources on this.

Gut feeling is there’s certain types who always run on low, putting £5/10 in at a time (and spending £15 on fags no doubt!)

But this has little to do with any argument against EVs really. Would those same people unplug their cars at 20% battery or is this just a culture of filling with petrol and not having the cash to put an appropriate amount of fuel in?

 

[Will]

?????

You may have seen the post I posted as a joke before thinking better of it!!

Actually about 827,000 people run their cars out of fuel every year....obviously stoopid people but even so!

Of course I saw your post

 

[Bellow]

Why are people going on about running out of fuel or running out of charge as if it is a real problem? Complete and utter non-issue.

Who runs out of fuel? I have never done so in over twenty years of driving. It’s not as though you don’t get any kind of warning now is it?

There’s something like 30 or 40 million cars in the UK, how many run out of fuel (or charge) each day?

Mind you, we do seem to have petrol/diesel shortages due to panic buying every few years!

It will happen.
One potential scenario: low on charge, recharging point busy/out of order, tempted to 'try and make it to the next nearest recharging point - shit!, didn't make it...

Maybe a similar sized battery boost pack could take place of a jerry can for those who for some unforeseen reason need a few extra miles to get them going?

I was queried on the relevance of highlighting battery storage being one hundredth of what is possible with liquid fuels. Some people (you) need to brush up on basic physics. Find it filed under 'science'.

Or the already mentioned option - you call recovery, the same for any other breakdown.

The white flag of surrender for the lamest. And the youth get caned for lacking resilience...

Really not seeing this as a legitimate reason to avoid EVs personally.

Agreed. But you cannot deny that it is another demerit relative to flexibility of use where ICE excels.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Of course I saw your post

It came from this before I realised how unlikely it was....I was going to leave it up but changed my mind!! More Daily Mail nonsense!!

More than 800,000 drivers a year run out of fuel

Research shows the number running out of petrol or diesel has risen every year since 2011, when the figure was a third lower. Men made up most of the 827,000 who ignored the warning light.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Will]

It will happen.
One potential scenario: low on charge, recharging point busy/out of order, tempted to 'try and make it to the next nearest recharging point - shit!, didn't make it...

I was queried on the relevance of highlighting battery storage being one hundredth of what is possible with liquid fuels. Some people (you) need to brush up on basic physics. Find it filed under 'science'.

The white flag of surrender for the lamest. And the youth get caned for lacking resilience...

Agreed. But you cannot deny that it is another demerit relative to flexibility of use where ICE excels.

I personally feel that any associated complexity of recharging a stranded EV would be offset/outweighed by a lower likelihood of this happening. Certainly for the vast majority.

People tend to fill cars up and then run them low before refilling (because they have to drive out of their way to do so) whereas if you can top up an EV at the local shops, gym, place of work or ideally at home then you should be able to start most journeys with a healthy level of charge.

Charging infrastructure will continue to improve over time (and petrol/diesel stations are beginning to close down), and EV tech is improving all the time - range will increase too. Maybe software can introduce a slightly more conservative ‘reserve charge’ level if required (and let’s face it, in EV/ICE vehicles you get plenty of range notice)

Sure there’s no doubt parts of the country that are sparsely populated with less public charging infrastructure but in areas where EVs are most widely used there’s literally dozens of chargers per square mile.

I’m thinking worst case scenario in future - there’s a lot more 13A socket outlets than there are petrol pumps. My comment regarding a ‘boost’ would literally be to get a stranded vehicle to safety - even a couple of kWh would be sufficient to get off road or ideally to a proper charger. That would probably weigh around 20Kg so portable enough if required for an emergency.

The point remains that there is little excuse to run out of fuel or charge, no modern vehicle uses fuel or charge that quickly that it should be a genuine problem for any normal user.

 

[Steveml63]

Portable EV chargers already exist.
One example shown below

 

[Noitz]

Portable EV chargers already exist.
One example shown below
View attachment 151284

This is surely a bargain compared to a 5L plastic petrol can @£6, or even a metal 20L Jerry can at less than £20.

 

[Will]

I’m still struggling the understand any real need for this though.

Look at the real world, where are 90% plus of those 30/40 million cars kept and used mainly? And how many miles do they realistically cover?

Why would you run out of charge?

Inconvenience of stopping to charge on a long journey, I believe everyone accepts that. Likewise the varying costs between charging somewhere cheap vs. somewhere more expensive. But to break down because you are driving with zero range - why?

Who actually carries a petrol/jerry can and when did you last run out of fuel?

Unless you’re carrying that fuel around with you 24/7 it’s going to be a walk to the nearest petrol station anyway!

 

[Bellow]

. My comment regarding a ‘boost’ would literally be to get a stranded vehicle to safety - even a couple of kWh would be sufficient to get off road or ideally to a proper charger. That would probably weigh around 20Kg so portable enough if required for an emergency.

A quick calculation (using the more generous 0.8MJ/kg figure) suggest that a 20kg battery would provide 4.4kW.hr. Enough for a mile or so. And, that battery pack is now depleted and will take time to recharge - unlike a petrol/diesel can which can be refilled in minutes.

The point remains that there is little excuse to run out of fuel or charge, no modern vehicle uses fuel or charge that quickly that it should be a genuine problem for any normal user.

It will happen. Just because you wont do it doesn't mean that no one else will. Face the inevitability of it. And realise the sheer inconvenience of it when it blocks a road. (I know that blocking a road is a mortal sin that should be punished by death because I've seen the attitude to protesters who do that).

 

[clk320x]

This is surely a bargain compared to a 5L plastic petrol can @£6, or even a metal 20L Jerry can at less than £20.

Except you won’t need to buy it - the recovery companies will.

Not to mention V2L allowing one EV to charge another.

 

[Will]

A quick calculation (using the more generous 0.8MJ/kg figure) suggest that a 20kg battery would provide 4.4kW.hr. Enough for a mile or so. And, that battery pack is now depleted and will take time to recharge - unlike a petrol/diesel can which can be refilled in minutes.

It will happen. Just because you wont do it doesn't mean that no one else will. Face the inevitability of it. And realise the sheer inconvenience of it when it blocks a road. (I know that blocking a road is a mortal sin that should be punished by death because I've seen the attitude to protesters who do that).

Does 4.4 kWh only give one mile of range?

I was thinking a couple of kWh should be sufficient for a few miles to get a standard vehicle to safety - either off road or ideally to a charger. Losses aside, don’t EVs get more than one mile per kWh?

Clk320x’s suggested idea of EVs being able to charge one another would be a great shout, if this ever was a problem in the future. Has an ICE car ever had to jump start another on a cold winter’s morning?

I still think this is an attempt to take discussion off-tangent, as in the real world it wouldn’t (shouldn’t!) be an issue for the majority - there’s no real excuse for it and it’s really not a reason for the general public to avoid EVs.

 

[KennyN]

Not to mention V2L allowing one EV to charge another.

Wont that be a bit inconvenient.



K

 

[Bellow]

Does 4.4 kWh only give one mile of range?

I was thinking a couple of kWh should be sufficient for a few miles to get a standard vehicle to safety - either off road or ideally to a charger. Losses aside, don’t EVs get more than one mile per kWh?

Seems that they are in the 3-4miles/kW.hr range - so maybe 16 miles there. But, it would be recharging a cold battery so losses there and, I based my calc on the 'best' figure - which isn't likely to be routinely accessible.
20kg BTW is at the upper end of what HSE permits as safe lifting limit in the workplace. Not everyone is fit/strong enough to lift that, the more so if stairs are involved. In reality, a tool for professionals - unlike our friend the Jerrycan.

Clk320x’s suggested idea of EVs being able to charge one another would be a great shout, if this ever was a problem in the future. Has an ICE car ever had to jump start another on a cold winter’s morning?

Good idea - if the cars' protocols permit it.

I still think this is an attempt to take discussion off-tangent, as in the real world it wouldn’t (shouldn’t!) be an issue for the majority - there’s no real excuse for it and it’s really not a reason for the general public to avoid EVs.

What it is is one more inconvenience for those who cannot recharge at home. Add up all the inconveniences for those people and they are being asked to accept these inconveniences. Who chooses to make their life more difficult?
If EVs were the only option for mobility without CO2 then I'd wholeheartedly embrace them. But they aren't. Bio fuels are an alternative that is much less disruptive (read: expensive) and that they are being ignored suggests to me politics in action. There's money to be made from electrification and the cost burden will affect us all.

 

[markjay]

Empty until needed - if needed at all.
Thing is, any ICE vehicle that has run dry can be resuscitated very, very easily. The same is not true for EVs. There will be an occurrence at some point (eg gridlock, all stuck in snow) where that assumes significance.

I don't carry flammable liquids in the boot of my car (and I suspect that the vast majority of the population do the same). Carrying an empty can - or buying one at the shop - is only good if you're fit enough to walk to the nearest petrol station and back. And if it's not too far away. And the weather is good. Or you have a friend or relative that you can call to attend at short notice. In this case, then yes it's very very easy.

My guess, however, is that majority of motorists will do two things if they run out of petrol or electricity: (1) call roadside assistance and let them sort it out, then (2) learn how to better plan their journey in future.

BTW, the last time I was stranded because of running dry was when I was 25 years old, and that was a very long time ago. Most people see life experiences as a learning opportunity.... I know I did.

 

[markjay]

One issue is surely that at 46p per kWh you are probably paying more per mile for 'fuel' than you would with an equivalent ICE, so not much incentive to switch if you can't charge at home. And the cost of charging can only go up in future as the government look to recoup the duty they receive from ICE fuels now (63.54p per litre, including VAT).

The main issue, as I pointed out earlier, is that both energy prices and average consumption figures for EVs vary across a very wide range. This makes calculating "typical EV cost per mile" very difficult.

I can, however, look at my particular circumstances. The cost of energy is dictated by the lamppost charger rates. This is de-facto - yes I could charge for free at Aldi around the corner, or pay a premium at the £150kWh public charger nearby, etc etc - but the reality is that I don't. I charge almost exclusively at the lamppost.

The consumption figures for my calculations is what the computer says it is, and yes, who knows if the computer is accurate. It is currently showing an average consumption of 2.66 mi/kWh for the month of December. Of course, I could drive in Eco mode instead of Standard mode, set recuperation to max or one-pedal, turn off the cabin heating, including the heated seats and the heated steering wheel, but in reality I don't do any of those. And I could also stop pre-heating the cabin but I won't - I like it when the car is nice and warm in the morning and the windows are already fully demisted.

The average cost is 17.39p per mile over the last month (my app doesn't show any further back than that). My last trip - to Heathrow T2 and back on Friday at 5am - averaged 3.87 mi/kWh, which works out as 11.88p per mile.

I think it's safe to say that the figures for the month of December are as bad as the consumption will get, and I don't expect to see better figured before March-April when the temperature rises and also the need for cabin heating subsides.

My other car is the Suzuki. It has a 1.6L petrol engine. It is driven mostly for short journeys (the kids drive it around locally), with the occasional trip to Cardif a few times a year (SIL is from there). According to the onboard computer, it does 400 miles on a full tank, which holds 47L. I put She'll V-Power in it, which currently costs £1.67 per litre, and so a mile costs me 19.62p.

But this is just my scenario. Regarding the Suzuki, I could use 95 Octane petrol which is £1.44 locally, and if I drove it on longer journeys it would presumably make the official figure which is 548 miles for a full tank - and the cost per mile would be reduced to 12.35p. But I don't do any of that.

And, I could equally start driving the EV more economically, and charge it on a granny charger using an extension cord through the front window......... or just for free at a local retail park.

How long is a piece of string...

 

[BTB 500]

Let's count the false arguments here:

1) By giving company car buyers that tax break, Joe Average will be able to pick up a four year old Ioniq5 with 30k on the clock for £15k....

Why would someone without the ability to charge at home do that though if it was potentially going to cost more to run than a cheaper ICE?

2) Sad IQ has put a £15 a day congestion charge tax on non-EV's being used in Central London - until 25th December 2025.

Fair enough, but central London is a bit of a special case ... relatively few people need to live/drive there, and I suspect not many would be charging from lamp posts. Others might be OK with paying £15 a day for the convenience of using an existing ICE vehicle, particularly if it wasn't 365 days a year.

3) Markjay, and many other EV owners, aren't just using EV's in cities purely to save money, they're obsessed with pollution.

That's fine, but IMO it's still worth pointing out that EVs can actually cost the owner more per mile than ICE if you can't charge at home. I don't think this is generally understood.

4) Why would the cost of charging "only go up" with volume and competition?
How would installing more chargers in Supermarkets, on high streets, and outside libraries and council estates "cost more?"

The government gets a huge income from fuel duty on diesel and unleaded (£24 billion plus PA), which they are already starting to lose as sales of these fuels fall away due to EV migration. The quick & easy solution would be to slap a directly equivalent duty onto commercial EV charging. Suppliers already have to recover VAT from the customer and pass this on, so adding a new duty surcharge would be relatively quick & easy.

5) Isn't it more likely that 2024's Labour Government will increase its taxation on motorists by charging by actual mileage driven
(and areas driven in) than by charging more for electricity coming out of a 13 amp domestic electric sockets, factory car park sockets and Tesco charge points?
The easy tax hit is on those who actually drive.

The government is already losing income on vehicle tax, so simply ending the exemption for EVs (as already announced) is the quick & easy solution. As a bonus a large percentage of EVs have a list price of over £40k so will attract the existing 5 year surcharge for that.

A new national scheme to replace road tax, fuel duty and local congestion/emission charging with something new based on road usage (e.g. via mandatory telematics in all vehicles) might come in the long term, but I think any government would need to start plugging the gaps in the short/medium term first.

 

[ALFAitalia]

If EVs were the only option for mobility without CO2 then I'd wholeheartedly embrace them. But they aren't. Bio fuels are an alternative that is much less disruptive (read: expensive) and that they are being ignored suggests to me politics in action

Lol....you need to do a bit more research....I bet you think hydrogen is a good idea too. Both use massive amounts of energy in the way of electricity to make that until we get to the point that we have more supplus renewable electricity than we know what to do with it will never be viable. Even then, you make it and then burn it in and ICE engine at about 30 percent efficiency (on top of all the losses involved in its manufacture) outs probably about 15 percent existent. Take that same electricity and run a car directly on it and it's over 90 percent efficiency. Its not even close to being efficient to burn anything in an ICE.....energy or carbon wise.
I don't like EVs......but you are really just making a big deal of things that will never affect 90 percent of users. Over 80 percent of all charging is done at home so the problems you suggest about charging don't exist for most EV owners. Those who regularly do over 250 miles a day just don't own an EV.
If I bought an EV (not happening!) with a 250 plus mile range I'd probably charge away from home give or six times a year tops and I could not see any problems with owning or running one.

TBH....not sure why I bother....the anti's are not going to change their views....why let facts get in the way. No posting on any that EV based from now on....yes I said it before....mean it this time!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Why would someone without the ability to charge at home do that though if it was potentially going to cost more to run than a cheaper ICE?

Fair enough, but central London is a bit of a special case ... relatively few people need to live/drive there, and I suspect not many would be charging from lamp posts. Others might be OK with paying £15 a day for the convenience of using an existing ICE vehicle, particularly if it wasn't 365 days a year.

That's fine, but IMO it's still worth pointing out that EVs can actually cost the owner more per mile than ICE if you can't charge at home. I don't think this is generally understood.

The government gets a huge income from fuel duty on diesel and unleaded (£24 billion plus PA), which they are already starting to lose as sales of these fuels fall away due to EV migration. The quick & easy solution would be to slap a directly equivalent duty onto commercial EV charging. Suppliers already have to recover VAT from the customer and pass this on, so adding a new duty surcharge would be relatively quick & easy.

The government is already losing income on vehicle tax, so simply ending the exemption for EVs (as already announced) is the quick & easy solution. As a bonus a large percentage of EVs have a list price of over £40k so will attract the existing 5 year surcharge for that.

A new national scheme to replace road tax, fuel duty and local congestion/emission charging with something new based on road usage (e.g. via mandatory telematics in all vehicles) might come in the long term, but I think any government would need to start plugging the gaps in the short/medium term first.

Why do you think that charging at home is the only cheap form of charging going forward? Do you not know people who park at work? A Central London lamppost may be expensive, but there are already cheaper commercially available sources out there. I can't be the only person who knows plenty of people working in small units and premises that are ideal for cheap employee EV charging. Or at least charged at a rate less than Westminster Council's lamp-post rate.

What makes you think that Sad IQ and all our other Socialist Mayors won't be charging £15 a day to drive into the all the major City centres (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc etc) by the time these used EV's reach the used market? They are desperate to raise local taxes using the greenwash justification?

As I said, the easiest additional driving taxation is road pricing which focuses on miles driven. It hits workers hard, and can't be evaded by those who charge at home. It doesn't need national telematics. Across Europe and the States it's already up and running: taxes on motorway and city driving.

I don't understand your point about vehicle tax. As you said, the tax break has already been taken away. Governments' pocket extra tax from our never-ending enthusiasm for more complex passenger cars. Look at what's happened in the States this month. They're withdrawing the $7,500 tax break on EV's. So what happened? People rushed out to buy $40k Teslas, and the Government pocketed the taxes on Tesla's revenues.

Generally you assume that our 35 million cars are all turning EV. Pull out a fag packet. It's one in 35 cars now. By 2030, it's can't be more than one in five. but I think it'll be no more than one in 7: so "just" 5 million EV's and 30 million ICE's still on the road.

And where are these new EV's going to be? In the cities, and in the hands of higher mileage motorists. in the hands of the image conscious Green wannabes, and in the hands of people who can charge their vehicles at home or cheaply, probably even "free," at work.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

If I bought an EV (not happening!) with a 250 plus mile range I'd probably charge away from home give or six times a year tops and I could not see any problems with owning or running one.

I mean, good Lord, you might even charge your EV at work, rather than at home.

Maybe even by a simple three pin plug at work. Although obviously you would tell the tax man.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Vehicle to Vehicle charging is already being used by the Ford Lightning

Bidirectional charging is on everyone's agenda for local battery storage. Both for cheap off-peak usage and as a store of local solar energy.