Formula 1 2020 (Will Contain Race Day Spoilers)

[Dryce]

Agree on the points above. The Mclaren-Honda may have been a success however I believe it was a challenge due to the 'size zero' packaging of their car/engine.

Both companies and also FA seem to have ended up coming together at the wrong time for each of them.

McLaren were stumbling but still thinking they were front runners in a world where Mercedes were ramping up their engine and package. FA had left Ferrari after some frustrations and almost getting titles - probably having misjudged the situation at McLaren and assuming that after a year of development he would have a competitive car for 2016 and 2017.

Did anybody here expect McLaren-Honda to struggle so much back at the start of 2015? Suppose Lewis Hamilton had signed for them - would we have been more wary of that than his signing for Mercedes from McLaren?

 

[GeeJayW]

Both companies and also FA seem to have ended up coming together at the wrong time for each of them.

McLaren were stumbling but still thinking they were front runners in a world where Mercedes were ramping up their engine and package. FA had left Ferrari after some frustrations and almost getting titles - probably having misjudged the situation at McLaren and assuming that after a year of development he would have a competitive car for 2016 and 2017.

Did anybody here expect McLaren-Honda to struggle so much back at the start of 2015? Suppose Lewis Hamilton had signed for them - would we have been more wary of that than his signing for Mercedes from McLaren?

Lewis has had a tie in with Mercedes for a long time. Had he stayed at McLaren, he would have needed to break away from Mercedes. Niki persuaded him to stay onboard.

McLaren stepped away from Mercedes because they didn't believe that a 'customer' engine would allow them to develop an advantage over the OEM team. Picking up with Honda was a on paper a good move. In practice, something wasn't quite right and the package wasn't as successful as either side wanted. FA's comments were definitely unhelpful in the McLaren/Honda relationship.

 

[Bellow]

Lewis has had a tie in with Mercedes for a long time. Had he stayed at McLaren, he would have needed to break away from Mercedes. Niki persuaded him to stay onboard.

Obvious - now you mention it! I'd never clocked the LH MB connection before.

McLaren stepped away from Mercedes because they didn't believe that a 'customer' engine would allow them to develop an advantage over the OEM team. Picking up with Honda was a on paper a good move. In practice, something wasn't quite right and the package wasn't as successful as either side wanted. FA's comments were definitely unhelpful in the McLaren/Honda relationship.

Is it fair to say that had McLaren stuck with MB they would have been on a par with the MB works team? If so, would MB have held back on power output and upgrades (surely what Ron Dennis feared)? Or would MB have let them run identical motors to the works team even if it cost them wins and championships?
If we remember back to the introduction of the hybrid formula, only MB was a consistent winner and not until the others got TJI did that change. Is Honda's engine a HCCI unit as rumoured or have they too embraced TJI?

 

[bob6600]

It could well be the case that Mssrs. Newey et al have made a better job of packaging the (no doubt also improved) Honda engine to end up with a more competitive car overall. Alonso's denegrating remarks (even if perhaps technically accurate and heartfelt) were well out of order and not for the first time. If he'd wanted a conversation with his engineer about the poor performance of the engine, that's one thing and could have been done after the race during debrief. Slagging off the engine effectively to an audience of millions was an arrogant, foolish thing to do.

I'm not surprised Honda have put the block on, I'd be more surprised if they had allowed him to sit in the car.

I think it was a case of Newey's better packaging and the fact that Honda changed their engine layout which they couldn't do with the McLaren - Honda had to make an engine that fitted McLaren's concept as they thought they had the best chassis. Obviously they didn't. I think they managed to change it in the last year or so with McLaren when the 'token' system was abolished.

 

[Bellow]

The Honda unit at RB hasn't made their car into a consistent winner though - despite Newey's acknowledged mastery of chassis and aero. But then again, that reputation was forged in the blown diffuser era and we've never really seen if his chassis is as competitive in this hybrid era as the previous one.

 

[Dryce]

But then again, that reputation was forged in the blown diffuser era and we've never really seen if his chassis is as competitive in this hybrid era as the previous one.

If you're referring to Mr Newey's reputation as a designer - that was built with Williams (5 championship winning cars) and McLaren (1 championship winning car ) - not just RB (4 championship winning cars).

If you're not referring to Mr Newey but to RB then it is stiill worth us remembering just how successful Mr Newey has been over his (still current) career!

 

[Bellow]

If you're referring to Mr Newey's reputation as a designer - that was built with Williams (5 championship winning cars) and McLaren (1 championship winning car ) - not just RB (4 championship winning cars).

If you're not referring to Mr Newey but to RB then it is stiill worth us remembering just how successful Mr Newey has been over his (still current) career!

Fair points - all of them!

Fair to say though, AN/RB's results of late haven't been stellar. If we rate AN highly, do we suspect that Honda aren't (yet?) quite as close as they need to be?

 

[GeeJayW]

Is Honda's engine a HCCI unit as rumoured or have they too embraced TJI?

I don't know is the short answer, it certainly sounds different from other engines especially off-load.

The slightly longer answer is that before I retired a colleague was 'playing' with HCCI in our single-cylinder engine lab. Seemed quite tricky to get it working well over a decent range of operation. So if adopting TJI is advantageous, then it seems likely they've gone that way.

This might be of interest: https://www.mahle-powertrain.com/me...on/mahle-jet-ignition-product-information.pdf

Honda are pretty darn sharp though, some years ago I was involved in a certain fuel economy challenge event and Honda had some very innovative engine technologies. IIRC they got about 8,000 mpg out of their prototype (the current record held by the French team 'Microjoule' is over 12,000 mpg).

 

[bob6600]

Fair points - all of them!

Fair to say though, AN/RB's results of late haven't been stellar. If we rate AN highly, do we suspect that Honda aren't (yet?) quite as close as they need to be?

Yes. Honda's power unit wasn't as powerful as say Mercedes or Ferrari but they were sacrificing some performance for reliability I think. With more progress behind the scenes, this year's PU should be better. Newey has always had a 'high rake' design which has proved well in the past, whether it is enough to win the WDC/WCC remains to be seen.

Mercedes struggled in the higher climates and openly stated that when teams design the car it has to be the best over the different tracks during the season (obviously). Red Bull will hope their design and PU will average better than MB or Ferrari.

Newey is definitely rated as one of the best, so much so that Red Bull gave Newey the Valkyrie as a project to keep him interested.

 

[Stratman]

..........................

Honda are pretty darn sharp though, some years ago I was involved in a certain fuel economy challenge event and Honda had some very innovative engine technologies. IIRC they got about 8,000 mpg out of their prototype (the current record held by the French team 'Microjoule' is over 12,000 mpg).

A genuine question: why aren't we driving round with these economical engines?

 

[GeeJayW]

A genuine question: why aren't we driving round with these economical engines?

It's not just the engines, the prototype vehicles are small, light, highly streamlined, have ultra low rolling resistance and are made from very lightweight materials. The engines are small, highly developed one-offs, they only operated intermittently over a 10-mile run, where the average speed must be at least 15mph. (These conditions may have since changed). The final fuel consumption figure is extrapolated from the fuel used over the 10-miles.The durabilility and scalability of these little engines is not likely to be useful for mainstream applications (otherwise that's what we'd have, there's no way an OEM would waste the opportunity).

The whole excercise is (still) aimed at school kids and student engineers. They come up with some really interesting solutions to things like suspension, drivetrain, fuel injection and so on.

One year we we running at Silverstone on one half of the circuit. The UK based F1 teams were using the other loop for aero testing. At the end of the day, McLaren relocated to one of the pit garages near to us ready for testing on the whole circuit the following day. All of the McLaren engineers were straight away looking at all these funny little cars, some were even sketching what they saw. Meanwhile of course all of the kids were nosing around the McLaren F1 car. Quite an interesting day.

 

[Mactech]

It's not just the engines, the prototype vehicles are small, light, highly streamlined, have ultra low rolling resistance and are made from very lightweight materials. The engines are small, highly developed one-offs, they only operated intermittently over a 10-mile run, where the average speed must be at least 15mph. (These conditions may have since changed). The final fuel consumption figure is extrapolated from the fuel used over the 10-miles.The durabilility and scalability of these little engines is not likely to be useful for mainstream applications (otherwise that's what we'd have, there's no way an OEM would waste the opportunity).

The whole excercise is (still) aimed at school kids and student engineers. They come up with some really interesting solutions to things like suspension, drivetrain, fuel injection and so on.

One year we we running at Silverstone on one half of the circuit. The UK based F1 teams were using the other loop for aero testing. At the end of the day, McLaren relocated to one of the pit garages near to us ready for testing on the whole circuit the following day. All of the McLaren engineers were straight away looking at all these funny little cars, some were even sketching what they saw. Meanwhile of course all of the kids were nosing around the McLaren F1 car. Quite an interesting day.

Yes, every day is a school day and every generation brings something new to the table.

You know you are getting old when the last World Championship you won was with a former team mate of Sir Stirling Moss....

World Sportscar Champions 1988 with Martin Brundle XJR9 Jaguar!

 

[bob6600]

Haas reveal their 2020 car, the VF-20

 

[bob6600]

Anthoine Hubert - FIA concludes investigation into fatal Formula 2 accident in Belgium

 

[bob6600]

Mercedes reveal new livery. Interestingly, new partner INEOS has signed a deal for 5 years. Does this indicate MB staying in the sport? Or will it end up on customer cars too?

Mercedes reveal new livery for F1 2020 as they add red to Silver

 

[bob6600]

Live stream of Ferrari's 2020 car launch

The New Ferrari Single-Seater - Ferrari.com

 

[GeeJayW]

Live stream of Ferrari's 2020 car launch

The New Ferrari Single-Seater - Ferrari.com

And BBC summary of same:
Ferrari F1 2020 launch: 'We have taken design to the extreme,' says team boss

 

[grober]

Chinese GP OFF!
Sources: Chinese GP to be called off due to coronavirus

 

[bob6600]

RB16 released today. Spot the difference lol

 

[Stratman]

Puts on cynic's hat:

With these launch pictures, would or even do teams deliberately mislead to divert attention? I'm thinking the Ferrari, for instance, looks extremely raked. Could that be a red herring, even though I realise the pictures will be analysed down to the last pixel by the rest?