Four-seater electric car unveiled

[wemorgan]

BBC link

The manufacturer claims that the Citroen C1 Ev'ie, which costs £16,850, has a range of up to 70 miles, with a recharge cost of about 90p. So that's 1.3 pence per mile.

A 1.0 petrol Citroen C1, which costs £8000, has a combined economy of 60 mpg, which is roughly 7 pence per mile at today's prices.

So if both cars were bought new and run for 3 years and 30,000 miles, the fuel costs alone would be £2100 for petrol and £390 for electric. But depreciation on the Ev'ie would have to be rock solid for the fuel gains not be be eroded away. Also, I've not heard anything about service costs and battery life.

But anyway, it's good to see a real electric car being made, rather than that G-Wiz rubbish.

 

[Dieselman]

It should be pretty sorted as a car. PSA have been running producing electric 106 and Partner type vehicles for many years.

I know a firm that runs some of them, I'll ask how they get on with them.

 

[Apial]

BBC link

The manufacturer claims that the Citroen C1 Ev'ie, which costs £16,850, has a range of up to 70 miles, with a recharge cost of about 90p. So that's 1.3 pence per mile.

A 1.0 petrol Citroen C1, which costs £8000, has a combined economy of 60 mpg, which is roughly 7 pence per mile at today's prices.

So if both cars were bought new and run for 3 years and 30,000 miles, the fuel costs alone would be £2100 for petrol and £390 for electric. But depreciation on the Ev'ie would have to be rock solid for the fuel gains not be be eroded away. Also, I've not heard anything about service costs and battery life.

But anyway, it's good to see a real electric car being made, rather than that G-Wiz rubbish.

But how much do you save on congestion charges? I don't pay any, but I bet those that do might find this vehicle more attractive. When this govt gets its act together they might try and put the cart behind the horse. Offering a £5k incentive to buy an electric car needs to be done now, not in a couple of years time. Who is going to buy a car with no subsidy today when they will get £5k off tomorrow?

 

[et0609]

£16k for that is way more than I would like to pay, even with a £5k discount, its still a bit hefty. 70 mile range is nothing. Electric cars are pointless in my opinion. The cost of production to the environment especially making the batteries completely contradicts the point of them, not to mention the electricity to charge it.

The way ahead is hydrogen and thats what car manufacturers and governments should focus on.

 

[Dieselman]

£16k for that is way more than I would like to pay, even with a £5k discount, its still a bit hefty.

70 mile range is nothing.

Electric cars are pointless in my opinion. The cost of production to the environment especially making the batteries completely contradicts the point of them, not to mention the electricity to charge it.

The way ahead is hydrogen and thats what car manufacturers and governments should focus on.

ROFLAMO...

The three statements made in your post are so wrong and contradict themselves.

Electric car at £16k is too much, but a £1Million hydrogen one is OK.

There will never be mass production of hydrogen cars, due to cost and the energy deficit in making the stuff.

THIS one
might be more interesting though.

and THIS one

 

[st4]

£16k for that is way more than I would like to pay, even with a £5k discount, its still a bit hefty. 70 mile range is nothing. Electric cars are pointless in my opinion. The cost of production to the environment especially making the batteries completely contradicts the point of them, not to mention the electricity to charge it.

The way ahead is hydrogen and thats what car manufacturers and governments should focus on.

70 mile range just now, but £16k-£5k mean its an £11k car. Thats only £3k more and over 3 years you'd recoup that on fuel costs + VED. What if in 4 years time a newer battery was brought out that was capable of giving 200 miles range. They could even make it fun by sending drive to the rear, and putting the battery in the middle, then it would drive like a c1 no other

To be honest an H2 fuel cell car would have a more usable range, but the sort of person who buys a car like this will not be buying it for its range, as they'll have a main car (A diesel saloon lets say) that can do the longer journeys (70 miles + in a C1 doesn't really appeal anyway).

However as a "commuting" car, this electric C1 makes a compelling case for itself. Silent, no gears so like an automatic car to drive but smoother, cheap as chips to run, and probably reliable as there is sod all running gear (I just hope its waterproof). So long as the batteries are swappable + recycleable it would have a long life as the battery is the only component of it that would degrade, making it truly eco friendly.

But is it eco friendly, probably not as much as PSA would like you to think. Lots of batteries (they don't make themselves) and the raw materials etc aren't eco friendly. I don't buy the CO2 thing either but if you did due to the efficiency of an electric car the CO2 emissions from the power used to recharge it work out about 40g/km making it better than any diesel on sale. I do however buy into the silent running and instaneous power that it could deliver.

 

[Dieselman]

But is it eco friendly, probably not as much as PSA would like you to think. Lots of batteries (they don't make themselves) and the raw materials etc aren't eco friendly.

Do internal combustion engines and all the drivevline components make themselves then.?

 

[Swiss Toni]

ROFLAMO...

The three statements made in your post are so wrong and contradict themselves.

Electric car at £16k is too much, but a £1Million hydrogen one is OK.

There will never be mass production of hydrogen cars, due to cost and the energy deficit in making the stuff.

Honda say $600 a month

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7456141.stm

 

[Dieselman]

That's not the true cost (think how much Bugatti lose on each Veyron) and also the hydrogen prduction creates an energy deficit as well as cost.

 

[miro]

The key to electric cars is lifespan. They have to last longer than petrol cars.

I think we are going to see the advent of removable body panels before long which will allow the front, back and sides to be remodelled. The era of throwing away a perfectly good chassis to buy one with different panels is also coming to an end.

A perfect example is the W203 coupe and the W204 coupe. That kind of marketing driven excess is going to vanish in the future.

 

[miro]

That's not the true cost (think how much Bugatti lose on each Veyron) and also the hydrogen prduction creates an energy deficit as well as cost.

The market is going to move away from Hydrogen and into Methane. The race is on to develop a consumable catalytic cartridge which converts Methane in real time.

The storage and use of methane is attractive for a number of reasons. However the conversion process is rather interesting and there are no cheap solutions yet.

 

[st4]

Do internal combustion engines and all the drivevline components make themselves then.?

No, but the raw materials are less damaging than batteries I would believe and being older technology may be more energy efficient to make and easier to recycle to. 95% of an MB is recycleable. I don't know what this would be for an electric car, although I did point out that apart from the battery (which could be swapped) the whole car would have a longer life span.

 

[nick mercedes]

It should be pretty sorted as a car. PSA have been running producing electric 106 and Partner type vehicles for many years.

Dairys have been running electric milk floats for years, you'd think the post office would switch to electric vans given their vans don't do many miles per year.

Delivery vehicles and city cars would be the best choice for electric power, expect Clarkson to mock them though...

 

[Dieselman]

No, but the raw materials are less damaging than batteries I would believe and being older technology may be more energy efficient to make and easier to recycle to. 95% of an MB is recycleable. I don't know what this would be for an electric car,

There is no reason why an electric car cant be just as recyclable, possibly more so. iirc the figure for the Axiam Mega range is also about 95%. It's bonded multi plastics and rubber than make parts difficult to recycle, not the mechanical components.

The batteries aren't necessarily toxic and can be fully recycled.

 

[miro]

There is no reason why an electric car cant be just as recyclable, possibly more so. iirc the figure for the Axiam Mega range is also about 95%. It's bonded multi plastics and rubber than make parts difficult to recycle, not the mechanical components.

The batteries aren't necessarily toxic and can be fully recycled.

Toyota Prius = 70% recycle

W204 = 95% recylce

Plus the carbon footprint of the battery manufacture. The Li-Ion goes around the world 2 or 3 times before it gets put into an owners use.

The carbon cost of electric cars is VERY high so they really need to last a very long time.

 

[Dieselman]

Toyota Prius = 70% recycle

W204 = 95% recylce

Can you substantiate that. There is no reason why a car can't be made fully recyclable.
people keep saying the batteries can't be recycled. Why not, it's common practice to recycle all battery types, so what makes NiMh ones such a problem.?

miro, from being in Aus you should know more than most about this as it's been covered by your own press.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/47ACB3101815707DCA2574B600815A6F

Is a Prius any more or less recyclable than a Corolla/Camry for example.?

More on recycling nickel from cars.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2009-04-23/news/hybrid-hell-the-toyota-prius-can-be-a-devil-to-drive/5

Also, nickel is 80 percent to 95 percent recoverable during the recycling process."

and don't forget.
"All cars contain nickel in their frames. The Hummer's frame, for example, has twice as much nickel as the Prius's.

 

[miro]

Can you substantiate that. There is no reason why a car can't be made fully recyclable.
people keep saying the batteries can't be recycled. Why not, it's common practice to recycle all battery types, so what makes NiMh ones such a problem.?

miro, from being in Aus you should know more than most about this as it's been covered by your own press.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/47ACB3101815707DCA2574B600815A6F

Is a Prius any more or less recyclable than a Corolla/Camry for example.?

More on recycling nickel from cars.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2009-04-23/news/hybrid-hell-the-toyota-prius-can-be-a-devil-to-drive/5

Also, nickel is 80 percent to 95 percent recoverable during the recycling process."

and don't forget.
"All cars contain nickel in their frames. The Hummer's frame, for example, has twice as much nickel as the Prius's.

The weight of the batteries and complex forumulation of additives makes it carbon intensive to recycle. In other words ... you make a metal very pure and then mix it in with chemicals and making it pure again is a nightmare.

Moving used batteries around is a complete waste of time.

 

[st4]

The weight of the batteries and complex forumulation of additives makes it carbon intensive to recycle. In other words ... you make a metal very pure and then mix it in with chemicals and making it pure again is a nightmare.

Moving used batteries around is a complete waste of time.

What about recycling them locally? Think about oil as a raw material. We drill it, pipe it, refine it, drive it before it ends up in a car. Are Li-ion/Nickel batteries that much worse, doubt it. The metals are mined, mixed with other chemicals and manfuctured. Apart from the mining the rest of this could be done locally.

Recycling could be done, dieselman points out we already do recycle batteries. It would be interesting to know what % of batteries we do recycle, and the costs/energy associated with it. You mention this is carbon intensive, what if the power came either from nuclear or renewable sources. I don't buy the total carbon foot print stuff and I'm far from convinced that CO2 is changing our climate, but can appreciate that oil will run out and unless the words population shrinks electric battery cars do look a very effective way of propulsion.

 

[miro]

What about recycling them locally? Think about oil as a raw material. We drill it, pipe it, refine it, drive it before it ends up in a car. Are Li-ion/Nickel batteries that much worse, doubt it. The metals are mined, mixed with other chemicals and manfuctured. Apart from the mining the rest of this could be done locally.

Recycling could be done, dieselman points out we already do recycle batteries. It would be interesting to know what % of batteries we do recycle, and the costs/energy associated with it. You mention this is carbon intensive, what if the power came either from nuclear or renewable sources. I don't buy the total carbon foot print stuff and I'm far from convinced that CO2 is changing our climate, but can appreciate that oil will run out and unless the words population shrinks electric battery cars do look a very effective way of propulsion.

In Australia we catch fish, send them to Thailand and then import them as fillets because the business director is a miserably cheap bas____d.

With batteries the mine is in Peru / Chile, the refinery is a secret place in Germany and the factory is in China. If you want to recycle locally then wait another 23 years for the patents to run out.

There is a new push in the science world to resolve patents by disregarding the ownership which causes massive barriers to society. I can affirm that ownership and patent law is what prevents things from being done. So start hoarding lithium ... even in the worst possible case you will never be depressed over the sight of such a rubbish pile (lithium is a mood stabiliser when taken as a drug).

But in all seriousness .... for a few pence profit there are thousands of things which get export and then imported again because of some cheaper factory. That in reality also has to change.