• The Forums are now open to new registrations, adverts are also being de-tuned.

Hesitation, KE-Jetronic problem?

Brabus3.6

Active Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
109
Location
London/Oxford
Car
1989 Brabus 3.6 Saloon
Okay, brabus has been suffering from hesitation just before around 2000rpm for a while now which clears up after it. It feels like a potential barrier which is overcome and then its fine.
I first thought it was and ignition system fault so I had the car scoped and it checked out fine according to Mercstar with all cylinders receiving the same spark. I have tried a new coil but to no avail.
I then moved onto the duty cycle,this reads 50% as it should for a non-cat car such as mine. I also measured the EHA current which appears to enrich the mixture under quick acceleration. However, when I disconnect the coolant temperature sensor (CTS) my problem seems to magically dissapear, although the acceleration past 2000rpm isn't quite as strong (due to the lack of enrichment I guess).
I resistance tested my CTS and it checks out. I then noticed fuel in my air flow potentiometer (which I have also previously checked and readjusted to Bosch/Merc spec), and upon removing this my throttle body. So I though leaking fuel distributor.
I bought my pressure regulator, fuel distributor, air flow sensor, injectors and cold start valve to specialist Ken Mills Injection. The fuel distributor was not leaking but he changed the seal anyway and recalibrated it as it was only giving 150cc instead of 175cc. All other components checked out fine. So today I put it all back together thinking :bannana: but :mad:, this car is having none of it, same problem. Where do I go from here guys?
 
Last edited:
Sounds very similar to KLP92' problem on his SEC...
 
Take the EHA off, don't drop the two green seals!, undo the flat head screw and using a small allen key(i think it's a 2-3mm....can't remember) turn the small brass screw 1/4 turn clockwise. Put it back, check for fuel leaks, and adjust your co. It will now go like a scalded cat!
We used to do and or check this on major services in Oz but nobody's ever heard of it here......well nobody i've worked with anyway.
 
Today I decided to change the CTS since it is fairly cheap and the resistance values accross its pins were slightly different to each other. This did not change the cars behaviour at all, hesitation at 2000rpm is still there.
Thanks to saumil I have the ECU pin-out and KE system test procedures so I dabbled a little. First of all I checked the harness to air flow pot, eha and CTS for continuity, all were fine. I then checked the air flow pot as saumil recommended, at rest it is around 1.4kohm, rising quickly and then more slowly until about 9kohms before falling again so no problem there.
Now onto the EHA valve, this passed the resistance test however I never noticed any enrichment whatsoever, it was always at 0ma, KOEO was 0ma too but I believe this is correct as mine is a standard non-cat car. When I had my fuel distributor rebuilt the gentleman checked the EHA and told me it is fine and working as it should be. I can only imagine I have an ecu fault. I have a spare EHA which I performed the quarter turn clockwise trick on, I swapped them over and this was also drawing no current at all.
I noticed one other thing, with my air-cleaner assembly removed when I revved the engine white smoke, smelling of oil came out of the hose which goes from the valve cover to the air cleaner. I can't remember seeing this before, but the car still runs okay/no hesitation with the CTS and thus KE-Jetronic system disconnected. Where from here???
 
Take the EHA off, don't drop the two green seals!, undo the flat head screw and using a small allen key(i think it's a 2-3mm....can't remember) turn the small brass screw 1/4 turn clockwise. Put it back, check for fuel leaks, and adjust your co. It will now go like a scalded cat!
We used to do and or check this on major services in Oz but nobody's ever heard of it here......well nobody i've worked with anyway.

I assumed he was joking but it sounded good lol
 
No the quarter-turn EHA trick is well documented on some Mercedes forums. Its just further enriching your mixture.
It could be a loose connection at the wires to the CTS, I will attempt to check that tomorrow by measuring the resistance at the wiring harness and playing about with the wiring. Otherwise I guess it's the ECU?!
 
I swapped ecu's with one in a breakers yard, no difference. I then realised that I wasn't using the ammeter function correctly, I plugged the wire into the wrong port . My EHA valve is enriching the mixture on blipping the throttle. I didn't see the +15ma change but I tested the car hot.
I decided to test my engine compressions and I got:

13 bar
13 bar
13 bar
12.5 bar
13.5 bar
12 bar

Cylinder 5 & 6 are just within the mercedes 1.5 bar tolerence in their literature. The compressions are slightly higher than 300E compressions due to Brabus raising the compression ratio. Cylinder 6 is leaking slightly from the rings. I introduced a teaspoon of oil and then read 13 bars from it's compression test. However I don't think my compressions should be giving me the problems I am seeing at the moment?
The crankshaft position could also apparently be causing this? I have never seen this mentioned on any forums as being such a cure.

KLP92 mentioned a CIS KE relay, I can only assume this is the infamous OVP? I will get some brake cleaner and test my intake manifold although I would have noone but myself to blame for such a problem.
 
I resistance checked the crankshaft position sensor, it checked out fine with 845 ohms.
I then checked the air flow pot again, at idle in drive I get almost bang on 0.7V, fluctuating around 0.71 as the idle is slightly unsteady. As the revs are raised the voltage slowly raises with them, no jumps at all. I went upto 3500rpm, way beyond my problem zone.
I will check the throttle valve switch next for completeness. Where do I go from here?! Is the TDC sensor important?
 
POssible solution!

I thought the air intake temperature sensor was pretty unimportant to be honest. Anyhow, running out of ideas I looked on alldatadiy.com where I read "The intake air temperature sensor which is located in the induction system measures incoming ambient air temperature. Information concerning the incoming air temperature is sent to the CIS-E and EZL control units and is used to calculate necessary adjustments to the air/fuel ratio and ignition timing. Low ambient air temperatures will tend to enrichen air/fuel mixtures and high ambient temperatures will tend to retard ignition timing."
So I resistance checked it, it should have the same resistance profile as the CTS. At room temperature I got 16kohm, telling the KE-ecu that the air is -30C and so enriching the mixture. This would explain my sooty black spark plugs too. I'll have to wait until wednesday for the part to come from the big merc warehouse in MK to find out though but I'm hopeful. Also would explain why without the electronic side of things the car performs better, as the base mixture is good.
 
KLP92 mentioned a CIS KE relay, I can only assume this is the infamous OVP? I will get some brake cleaner and test my intake manifold although I would have noone but myself to blame for such a problem.

The CIS KE relay is different form the OVP. Its normally located in the passenger footwell. This can be cause a misfire/stutter/hesitation.

Have you changed the air flow meter, where the fuel distributor sits? This can cause the problems you're encountering. The throttle postion sensor on the side may be playing up or could actually be a problem within the unit. Try disconnecting the electrical connector to the sensor and see if it makes a difference.
 
KLP92, I was actually accidently driving without my throttlr position switch connected when I had this problem. I only realised when I couldn't on the proper ignition on engine off duty cycle value of 70%. The duty cycle should tell you if there is a problem with any of it's sensors. Mine reads 50% as it should for a non-cat car.
I changed and recalibrated the air flow pot to 0.7V at idle, this procedure is well documented at mercedesshop.com forums and KMI (who I also used for my fuel distributor recalibration and can wholeheartedly recommended) used to do this but bosch no longer supply the sensors on their own. This was not my problem though, in fact my air flow pot surface was perfect!
Thank you for the location of the CIS-KE relay, if this sensor doesn't do the trick I'll definitely check it out. Would it be in the same place in the 124 chassis? I can't remember seeing any relays there. Just some behind the battery and some behind the fuse box.
 
No change

The air intake sensor was definitely bad, an ohmeter across the new one gave ~2kohms (old one was 16kohms) but still no joy. I'm running out of ideas, but I think I'm going to go though the entire KE-Jetronic test procedures before bringing it to a mechanic.
KLP92, that relay, that bosch KE-Jetronic ecu, I have tried a spare one and it made no difference :(

Throttle position sensor checked out okay, only just below 1ohm, but below nonetheless, cleaned up the pins too. Looked inside my ecu connector and all was well, no corrosion. I also had the wrong fuel pump installed, with one pin (87H) missing, put the correct one back, no change. It's off to a Merc shop tomorrow (lymington motors in Neasden).
 
Last edited:
The CIS KE relay is different form the OVP. Its normally located in the passenger footwell. This can be cause a misfire/stutter/hesitation.

Have you changed the air flow meter, where the fuel distributor sits? This can cause the problems you're encountering. The throttle postion sensor on the side may be playing up or could actually be a problem within the unit. Try disconnecting the electrical connector to the sensor and see if it makes a difference.
is the throttle position sensor suppose to be a resistor type(pot) in the 124 engine? I checked mine and it seems to be wide open or closed switching. I want to connect this to my lpg controller
 
The only values for this sensor in the KE data are for the fully open and closed positions of zero and infinity ohms so not useful for your purposes.
 
I was at Lymington's earlier this morning, they said a Brabus came into their workshop on Friday. They think that the prob is that your cam and fingers are worn.

You'll have a tough time sourcing a replacement cam, may be easier and cheaper to buy a stock cam and send it to Piper cams along with your old one and have it modified.

Mine's there at the moment, just having the car put on the oscillscope to see if we can pinpoint the problem and have a few other things rechecked.
 
Okay I visted Lymington motors where they told me they had fixed KLP92's car earlier on in the day. They were meant to check and adjust the EHA valve. When they eventually got the pressure tester onto the fuel distributor (it measures the upper or lower chamber pressure) the tool seemed like a compass, changing reading as you moved it. Anyway they seemed to establish that the pressure differential was only 0.3 bar when it should be 0.4.
They removed the valve and were put off by the screw which they though was the adjustment. The prats were trying to turn it clockwise almost rounding off the threads! I informed them that you undo the screw and an allen key is adjusted underneath. Bottom line was no change and really not much of an idea either except that they initially did a leakage test, all cylinders over 50% so I'm going to strip the engine down and do the rings. Also going to check for a vacuum leak as KLP did.
 
Hesitation and one case of eliminating it.

Greetings,

This is my first post on this forum and I am writing this text as repayment for the help MB forums have given me in the past...

My good friend bought a 260E that had sat for several years due to a terrible hesitation issue that several shops had tried to resolve by sucking cash out of the owners billfold.

Here is a brief history of parts replacements and adjustments -
EHA valve replaced.
EHA valve adjusted 1/4 turn.
New fuel distributor.
New cap, rotor, wires and plugs.
Fuel pump.
Computer.
Coolant sensor.
Idle Valve.

According to the previous owner the only aforementioned item that seemed to improve things was the EHA adjustment. Improved, not eliminated.

I started out by following a methodical process of elimination. I first performed a compression test and found everything OK. However when I measured vacuum, my needle was bouncing around 16 inches; a sticky valve. I added Rislone engine cleaner (basically ATF fluid) and drove the car for 100 hard driving miles. When I retested vacuum the needle was rock solid on 16 inches, which to me was OK but perhaps a little low. I now knew that the engine was solid and was then going to poke around the injection system.

Fuel pump delivery test - removed feed line to the fuel distributor and placed the line into a container. I jumpered the fuel pump relay socket and ran the fuel pump for one minute. Fuel flow minimum is 0.5 Gallon a minute, or 1.8927059 liters. This car delivered nearly one Gallon. OK.

Total system fuel pressure test - I went to a breakers yard and cut off several steel lines to be used to test the fuel distributor as the fitting are not common on these cars. I then inserted a pressure gauge between the feed line and my "test fitting", and then connected everything back onto the distributor. Again I jumpered the fuel pump socket and measure a total sytem pressure of 82 PSI, or 5.65517 Bar. 75 to 82 is correct. OK.

System pressure hold test - This is observed immediately after turning off the fuel pump on the total system pressure test. When the pump stops watch your pressure gauge, it should hold 70% of total system pressure for several minutes. This car immediately dropped to zero. Not OK.

Pressure regulator leak down test - Ok, this car failed the system pressure hold test, so I clamped shut the fuel return hose from the regulator and repeated the pressure hold test. It again returned to Zero after the pump was shut off. I then depressed the AFM plate and peered inside the AFM to see if fuel was leaking inside; it was not. This told me that the fuel pump check valve was shot and that the accumulator by the pump was no longer working. These items help make restarting a warm engine nice and crisp (as long as the injectors don't leak) but these will not cause the engine hesitation.

Injector leakdown test - I removed the cold start fuel line from the distributor and inserted my junk yard fitting I spoke of earlier and connected a pressure gauge. I started the car and immediately turn it back off. According to the information I had this pressure should hold at 38 psi, which it did for several seconds then slowly began to drop; leaking injectors.

Injector delivery test - I removed each injector, bent the fuel lines back, screwed the injectors back on, pulled the lines back far enough that I could place small containers under each, placed a pen inside the AFM (to depress the plate) and jumpered the fuel pump socket for 30 seconds. During this test I observed the spay patterns for each injector, then after turning off the pump measured the fuel in each container. They were all within 10% of each other, which is correct. This test does not check cracking pressure which is 41psi. That requires a test jig which I don't have. I was not satisfied with the spray pattern so I took ScotchBrite Red, and I actually scoured the injector end until the tips were clean (I stuck the ScotchBrite in the end and simply twisted the injector back and forth.). I then took a pencil rubber and placed it on the tiny valve on the tip and lapped them (twist back and forth). Guess what? The injectors then sprayed nicely and even had that high pitch squeal you want to hear! Lucky me.

Differential pressure test - I am a little confused on how to configure the pressure gauges to perform this test so I did not perform this test. I was not convinced that the distributor was the culprit so I continued.


Ok, it seemed that everything mechanical was in good working order, yet this car acted like a carburetted engine with a bad accelerator pump. I was convinced that there was a vacuum leak or a bad EHA signal from the ECU. I decided to save the computer testing for last, and even though my vacuum leak spray test revealed nothing, I decide to remove the AFM assembly and the Idle valve hoses for a proper inspection. A quick look at the Idle valve hoses showed no signs of problems.

I dismantled the AFM, first removing the distributor, then removing the lower rubber half of the AFM. Everything looked OK at first so I began to hand clean and inspect the plate mechanism and cleaned everything. I re-centered the plate so that .002" feeler could easily feel around the plate and housing. Everything seemed perfect and I was starting to feel beaten down, thats when I looked at the the rubber lower half of the AFM. It had oily residue on the rubber sealing lip which told me it was leaking! Not using silicone as it does not hold up to fuel, I put a small bead of gasket eliminator on the clean rubber lip and re-assembled the AFM. Then when I was about ready to reinstall the Air valve hoses I decided to check those again. The Hose that the cold start valve goes into was soft and still in good shape, however the hose that goes from the air valve to the AFM had hardened and was loose on the connecting ends. A closer look at the end that attached to the valve revealed small splits; I did not see them at first but when I slightly smashed the hose with my fingers they showed their ugliness (Splits). For under 16$ US dollars I replaced the air valve hose.

Before I reassembled everything I remembered that the EHA valve had been increased by 1/4 turn so I returned it to "stock". Upon re-assembly I started the engine which started right up and ran smoothly. I checked the AFM potentiometer voltage (.76V) and I set the mixture CO and went out for a test run. As soon as I mashed on the accelerator I knew the problem was resolved, and it was!

I must add that I cleaned the main throttle valve and checked all vacuum lines. I believe that the AFM "Boot" and the air valve hose were leaking, and that the injectors were not 100%. But my cleaning and a tank of MOLY LUBE valve cleaner fixed that.

All of this just proves that simple spraying for leaks is not a proper method, and that the only true way to check things is to take it apart, scrutinize, and test. I am grateful that I saved the electronic testing for last. I hope that this experience will help others in this difficult and misleading problem that plagues so many owners.

Cheers,
Blake Dodson
 
Last edited:
That's a fantastic post Blake, welcome aboard.

When first reading I was thinking of a vacuum leak, nice to know it was.

Did you also sort the non return valve and accumulator issue to assist with hot starting?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom