HONDA's HYDROGEN CAR

[hawk20]

Honda FCX Clarity cars that emit water are on way
A hydrogen fuel cell car that emits only water from its exhaust pipe has started to come off a production line.
The first three Honda FCX Clarity cars were presented to American customers in Japan and about 70 a year will be produced.
Those using the car - likely to include actress Jamie Lee Curtis - will be involved in a three-year lease plan paying around £300 a month, including insurance.

At the heart of the FCX Clarity is a fuel cell stack - a device that uses an electrochemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen to convert chemical energy into electrical energy to power a motor that drives the car's wheels.

Honda's FC stack simultaneously generates electricity and water, emitting no carbon dioxide or other harmful emissions.
"The arrival of the first hydrogen fuel cell car is particularly significant during this time of rapidly increasing oil prices," said John Kingston, environment manager for Honda (UK).
"Honda is proud to offer an alternative energy solution that could reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and the effect of motoring on climate change."

 

[grober]

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

 

[xpc316e]

How do we get the hydrogen to run these things on? The 'production' of hydrogen causes all sorts of pollution, so there's little benefit apart from zero pollution at point of use.

 

[hawk20]

So serious question: how do we get the hydrogen?

 

[Inkyskin]

I think you can get much more mpg too - however your right, since it essentially creates more crap to make hydrogen, is there really a point to this car untill we can create it effeciently?

 

[grober]

So serious question: how do we get the hydrogen?

Electrolysis of water!

 

[hawk20]

Electrolysis of water!

So we need a power station do we, fired with oil or coal or maybe nuclear if we wait ten years?

I see they are making the princely total of 70 per year. Just to lay claim to first production of car of this type maybe?

MB have fuel cell version of the A class in prototype don't they? Someone posted yonks ago IIRC.

 

[Dieselman]

Hydrogen fuel cells will never power cars for various reasons. The fuel is a major problem to store and transport, including filling the vehicle and hydrogen gives off less energy when burnt than is used to produce it..

Honda are only going to release 200 Clarity to selected drivers. The cars will be on lease and taken back to Honda. There are only 3 filling stations to fill from during the trial.

Gimmick.

 

[Gucci]

Gimmick.

Do you think it's a total non-starter, or worth the investment in improving the technology? I can't help thinking that this progression and research is what should be happening.
The answer may be unresolved now, but the development work is valueble. The first petrol powered car in 1885 by a certain Mr.Benz wasn't exactly the fastest car in the world?

 

[Dieselman]

Do you think it's a total non-starter, or worth the investment in improving the technology?

Pretty well yes. The problem isn't just the manufacture of the fuel cells to reasonable cost but the significant technical dificulties in making them work reliably. If they do make it into cars then it will only be for smaller cars as they don't require as much power to drive themm thus a smaller cell can be used.
Add to that the amount of platinum required it makes them too expensive and tere probably isn't enough platinum worldwide to make a significant number of them anyway.

The main technical difficulty is not the fuel cell but the hydrogen, for two reasons; it takes more energy to make it than it gives back by burning it and the transport and storage problems are immense.

Anybody remember the story of the Hindenberg.? That's Hydrogen for you.
Instead of a Tiger in your tank you could have a Bomb in your boot...

I wonder if the car manufacturers keep talking about fuel cells to distract the public from the lack of other technology being developed, knowing that fuel cells won't ever make it into series production.

 

[Gucci]

I had no idea platinum was used - in that case, Honda, stop wasting everyone's time!

 

[Stratman]

How do we get the hydrogen to run these things on? The 'production' of hydrogen causes all sorts of pollution, so there's little benefit apart from zero pollution at point of use.

Unlike oil refineries, I suppose?

hydrogen gives off less energy when burnt than is used to produce it

How much energy does it take to produce a gallon of petrol? Start with drilling a hole in the ground.......


Dino fuel will run out, maybe even in our lifetime. Hydrogen fuel cell technology for mass production is in its infancy, but give credit to Honda for removing their corporate head from the sand and at doing something about it.

Remember, petrol started as a waste product.

 

[Gucci]

Remember, petrol started as a waste product.

Interesting. I wonder if we'll start using more waste products - chip fat is another example

 

[grober]

Hydrogen is also produced from steam reforming of natural gas http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/consumer/hydrogen/basics/production.htm but as the following figures suggest that takes us back to fossil fuels again.
The cost of hydrogen production is an important issue. Hydrogen produced by steam reformation costs approximately three times the cost of natural gas per unit of energy produced. This means that if natural gas costs $6/million BTU, then hydrogen will be $18/million BTU. Also, producing hydrogen from electrolysis with electricity at 5 cents/kWh will cost $28/million BTU — slightly less than two times the cost of hydrogen from natural gas. what the diagram shows however is that in the total absence of fossil fuels BUT with access to electricity from nuclear or renewables hydrogen could be a low carbon footprint portable fuel albeit an inefficient one in comparison to hydrocarbons

 

[Mudster]

It'll take 20 years or so to make this viable, at which point we're likely to discover that Hydrogen is making a hole in the moron layer and we're all doomed unless we fill our cars with fossil fuel to plug the hole.

I just don't subscribe to the idea Humans are making that much difference. Whilst I have no doubt that cleaner emissions would certainly help reduce the harm done it goes no way towards halting the inevitable natural cycle of this planet...humans or not.

This is of course a personal view and I won't be basing my campaign for president on this basis.

 

[R2D2]

There are some other problems with hydrogen.

 

[grober]

It'll take 20 years or so to make this viable, at which point we're likely to discover that Hydrogen is making a hole in the moron layer and we're all doomed unless we fill our cars with fossil fuel to plug the hole.

I just don't subscribe to the idea Humans are making that much difference. Whilst I have no doubt that cleaner emissions would certainly help reduce the harm done it goes no way towards halting the inevitable natural cycle of this planet...humans or not.

This is of course a personal view and I won't be basing my campaign for president on this basis.

I don't understand your post. I was posting about potential alternative energy sources for cars in the absence of economically accessible fossil fuels. You seem to be talking about climate change.

some of this makes interesting reading:- http://www.h2euro.org/Publications/...EUSEW08_Towards_a_Commercial.Andre_Martin.pdf

 

[Ratz]

Anybody remember the story of the Hindenberg.? That's Hydrogen for you.
Instead of a Tiger in your tank you could have a Bomb in your boot...

I wonder if the car manufacturers keep talking about fuel cells to distract the public from the lack of other technology being developed, knowing that fuel cells won't ever make it into series production.

To be fair, petrol vapour is pretty flammable too , although obviously the pressures aren't so high I realise .

While I appreciate your assertion that this technology is a no hoper, it's an incredibly expensive (financially & PR wise) diversionary tactic surely? Having said that the Hybrid technology is doing well despite the fact that a modern diesel has it licked on almost every front . My own view is that it's a PR stunt mixed with a serious attempt to at least show alternative fuels can work on a small scale.

 

[Mudster]

I don't understand your post. I was posting about potential alternative energy sources for cars in the absence of economically accessible fossil fuels. You seem to be talking about climate change.

some of this makes interesting reading:- http://www.h2euro.org/Publications/...EUSEW08_Towards_a_Commercial.Andre_Martin.pdf

You may have noted alternative fuels and climate change are inexorably linked.......

 

[CiaranMcKeown]

I just hope im round to see the day they are able to harness the hydrogen in our H20 (water).

Seperate the hydrogen from the oxygen, burn it for fuel and the only major waste gas is oxygen. I understand that this is how a lot of hydrogen is produced before it is placed into fuel cells etc, but why cant it be seperated just before it enters the engine or whatever, C'mon how hard can that be realistically?

The day we are going to the filling station to fill up with water i will be a happy man.