M25 Speed cameras

[HowardD]

Sometimes the speed limit changes as you drive past the gantry. I dont know if the technology is clever enough that the camera knows immediately which speed limit is in place, or when it last changed.

The other thing I dont know is what counts a single episode of speeding.

If a driver passes one motorway camera at 90mph, is photographed, and then carried on travelling at 90 through the next one. Is it two different speeding offences, or one long one?

HD

 

[flango]

Sometimes the speed limit changes as you drive past the gantry. I dont know if the technology is clever enough that the camera knows immediately which speed limit is in place, or when it last changed.

The other thing I dont know is what counts a single episode of speeding.

If a driver passes one motorway camera at 90mph, is photographed, and then carried on travelling at 90 through the next one. Is it two different speeding offences, or one long one?

HD

There is a delay after the speed limit changes before the camera re activeates, not sure how long though.

If you are caught on 2 separate Gatso's it's 2 separate offences, a guy at a customers site got caught on 3 cameras in succcession on the same road, he got 3 NIP's 9 points and £180 worth of fines.

 

[PXW]

There is a delay after the speed limit changes before the camera re activeates, not sure how long though.

If you are caught on 2 separate Gatso's it's 2 separate offences, a guy at a customers site got caught on 3 cameras in succcession on the same road, he got 3 NIP's 9 points and £180 worth of fines.

Interesting - I've wondered about the same point in the past - so is the offence going through the camera or exceeding the speed limit? If the latter, all they have is three pieces of evidence for a single offence? Presumably it would vary from case to case, but if you are on a clearish motorway and snapped three times by successive cameras at the same speed, the evidence would indicate that you only went over the limit the one time, and 9 points/triple fines would be a disproportionate penalty. SPECS of course allows you to commit multiple offences in the same stretch of road for one ticket! What do your legal buddies think?

Of course the second smartest action would be to slow down after the first flash and limit the downside...

 

[orangeboy]

Yeah, why would it be one offence? If you went through a town, and got flashed by 3 different cameras it would count as 3 different offences, so why would it be different on a motorway?

I never take any chances on the M25, although it´s clear that many people do. If they know something I don´t good luck to them.

I have always wondered if the gantry cameras take pics when variable is off, but by the sounds of things on here, they don´t. Maybe the key to that is the fact the warning signs are only for variable limit, and not a straightforward camera on it´s own.

It´s also an unwritten law that the speed limit on a motorway is 80 anyway, and if they took pictures and fined people going over 70 there would be uproar; it would also slow the motorway system dramatically.

It´s very rare that you have the opportunity to speed on that nightmare of a road anyway.

 

[PXW]

Yeah, why would it be one offence? If you went through a town, and got flashed by 3 different cameras it would count as 3 different offences, so why would it be different on a motorway?

I never take any chances on the M25, although it´s clear that many people do. If they know something I don´t good luck to them.

I have always wondered if the gantry cameras take pics when variable is off, but by the sounds of things on here, they don´t. Maybe the key to that is the fact the warning signs are only for variable limit, and not a straightforward camera on it´s own.

It´s also an unwritten law that the speed limit on a motorway is 80 anyway, and if they took pictures and fined people going over 70 there would be uproar; it would also slow the motorway system dramatically.

It´s very rare that you have the opportunity to speed on that nightmare of a road anyway.

It would be one offence if the offence is breaking the speed limit. It would be three offences if the offence is passing a Gatso above the limit. In town you would likely have dropped below the limit between flashes, so three offences. Or at least that's the question on the table.

I read this thread differently from you - my conclusion from Flanaia1's post is that the cameras ARE active when the speed signs are not lit.

And I've personally had many opportunities to speed on that road (not that I've taken them!)....all depends what time of day you are on it

 

[Gridlock]

Just don't speed anti-clockwise around Heathrow in a lowered car.

Got the Golf airborne at slightly over 69mph a while ago, there's some surprisingly big dips and ridges..

 

[flango]

Interesting - I've wondered about the same point in the past - so is the offence going through the camera or exceeding the speed limit? If the latter, all they have is three pieces of evidence for a single offence? Presumably it would vary from case to case, but if you are on a clearish motorway and snapped three times by successive cameras at the same speed, the evidence would indicate that you only went over the limit the one time, and 9 points/triple fines would be a disproportionate penalty. SPECS of course allows you to commit multiple offences in the same stretch of road for one ticket! What do your legal buddies think?

Of course the second smartest action would be to slow down after the first flash and limit the downside...

Go through 3 sets of Gatso's over the limit and you commit 3 separate offences of exceeding the posted speed limit. The difference between Gatso's and Specs on a motorway and from a legal point of view is that if you went through 3 gatso's it would be at 3 different physical locations, the location being the calibrated lines on the road. Therefore the offence occurs at an exact point in time and the photo is a snapshot of that offence. In SPECS the location is the actual distance between the 2 cameras so you only commit one offence between camera one and camera two. What you have to remember with SPECS is that although there may be several sets of cameras there will only be one pair of them working at any onetime so you will only ever be able to commit one offence. This is the reason a lot of authorities and the Highways Agency stopped using Gatso's in roadworks and replaced them with SPECS, Gatso's were just seen as cash generators and had little to do with road safety or the protection of the road maintenance workforce.

 

[Birdman]

Definitely read of magistrates courts treating multiple speeding offences as a single offence eg when driver unaware of recent change to a speed limit. Courts don't exercise leniency towards speeding unless driver is young unlicenced asbo car thief in which case an earful plus suspended sentence.

 

[PXW]

Definitely read of magistrates courts treating multiple speeding offences as a single offence eg when driver unaware of recent change to a speed limit. Courts don't exercise leniency towards speeding unless driver is young unlicenced asbo car thief in which case an earful plus suspended sentence.

Interesting - can you recall where?

 

[flango]

Definitely read of magistrates courts treating multiple speeding offences as a single offence eg when driver unaware of recent change to a speed limit. Courts don't exercise leniency towards speeding unless driver is young unlicenced asbo car thief in which case an earful plus suspended sentence.

Thats interesting because I can confirm magistrates guidellines are to deaal with them as separate offences unless under exceptional circumstances. Can also confirm from SWMBO that the CPS would also prosecute them as separate offences if it went to court.

 

[bpsorrel]

Having driven on 9 points for 3 years a few years ago, I now treat every camera as a potential nick! (ludicrously, all 9 came in one week after 20 years with none!!)

 

[Birdman]

Times Newspaper. Seems elsewhere on forum someone wrote 'can confirm magistrates guidellines are to deaal with them as separate offences unless under exceptional circumstances'....who is closer to these things maybe?

 

[st13phil]

Interesting - can you recall where?

I seem to remember there was a fairly high profile case in Southend where there are a large number of Gatso's on a short stretch of road.

Can also confirm from SWMBO that the CPS would also prosecute them as separate offences if it went to court.

The CPS will claim black is white if it someone has the temerity to take a speeding case to court.

 

[flango]

The CPS will claim black is white if it someone has the temerity to take a speeding case to court.

Bit of a wild generalisation me thinks?

 

[ckember]

My Logic,

The M25 is a motorway like any other.

Therefore in the scenario you suggest if the limit was set in lanes 1,2 and 4 and not shown in lane 3 and you were in lane 3 going above the limit whilst cars in lane 4 were going slower, you could be opening yourself up for a dangerous driving charge as you'd be "undertaking" or passing on the left.

Likewise if lanes 1,2 are clear and you are in lane 3 (going faster because there is no limit) you'll have a job explaining and defending your choice of lane.

The only time that one will work is when lanes 1,2 are moving, lane 4 is empty and lane 3 you can use @ a higher speed than the one in lanes 1 and 2

That is not quite true. You are allowed to do 70mph, or the speed indicated by the overhead gantry, in any lane on the motorway. If the outside lane stops are you saying that because you are going faster in the middle lane you will be prosecuted. this is just not so. That would mean I could stop in the outside lane of the M25 and you wouldn't be allowed to pass me as you would be undertaking. You may not go from the outside lane to the middle or inside lane to then move out into the outside lane again when you have passed the slower vehicle.

Technically if you stay in the outside lane until it stops, move into the middle lane (lane hop) then back into the outside lane one or two cars later you are correct ion that you have undertaken. However if you stay in the middle lane and it always moves faster than the other two you have not broken the law.

 

[A-AvantGarde]

Having driven on 9 points for 3 years a few years ago, I now treat every camera as a potential nick! (ludicrously, all 9 came in one week after 20 years with none!!)

Ahh, I know how you must have felt. I had 11 points at one time , although luckily the first 6 points came very close together so I only had just over a year of pain

 

[James Rothwell]

I seem to remember there was a fairly high profile case in Southend where there are a large number of Gatso's on a short stretch of road.The CPS will claim black is white if it someone has the temerity to take a speeding case to court.

It was on the A127 when the average speed cameras where first installed. If it's the same person I'm thinking of he went through pretty much the entire A127 a three times the speed of sound and the said that he exceeded the speed limit only once through the entire journey rather than the numerous cameras that caught in at 120mph+.

 

[flango]

It was on the A127 when the average speed cameras where first installed. If it's the same person I'm thinking of he went through pretty much the entire A127 a three times the speed of sound and the said that he exceeded the speed limit only once through the entire journey rather than the numerous cameras that caught in at 120mph+.

That would be right average speed cameras = 1 offence. Multiple Gatso's = Separate offences.

 

[jeremytaylor]

Got the Golf airborne at slightly over 69mph a while ago, there's some surprisingly big dips and ridges..

I almost put a head-shaped dent in the roof of an Astra GTE 16V on the same bumps many moons ago!

 

[st13phil]

Bit of a wild generalisation me thinks?

Fair comment I should have said "Some of the CPS will claim black is white..."

It was on the A127 when the average speed cameras where first installed.

No, that's not the one I was thinking of. The one I had in mind involved a driver tripping three or four consecutive Gatso's on the seafront in a 30 limit. ISTR that it was successfully argued by the defence to be a single offence, which is what any reasonable application of logic would lead you to believe.