Mercedes broke my car and are pointing the finger my way!

[gl boy]

Hello peoples!

Just got off the phone to MB repair shop who have informed me that whilst accessing the transmission to replace the oil a casing bolt froze resulting in the head shearing off . (Thats no good I thought but at least a new bolt will fix it) He then proceeded to tell me that whilst attempting to remove the broken bolt they broke a peice of the casing around it .

The repair managers view on this is as follows:
- I will need to pay for the additional time to sort out the bolt
- I can decide to either fix it with g-clamp and sealant which will not be an approved MB repair or....
- I can pay for a new gearbox

He stated that the bolt was frozen due to corrossion which he insinuated was grounds to push charges my way?

Legally what is the go with this sort of situation?

Anyone had to go head to head with this sort of thing?

Any of your experiences or opinions will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

fight fight and fight this all the way and stay calm and polite at all times and tell them you will make life difficult at mb of worcester by telling anyone you know with a mb to stay away if this is not resolved.also speak to the main head office and explain your problem.Had a major problem with a dealer few years ago and stuck to my guns and the result was done (wont go into details as i agreed not to mention what happened publicly) regards jon

 

[GrahamC230K]

Well normally so long as its in your care its your responsibility not so for any items such as CD's or sunglasses that the owner has decided to leave in the car but the car itself is up to you to look after.

If something gets broken by mistake well no biggie just claim on the insurance thats what its there for at the end of day.

Its like if you gave me your car for a week and i lost control on ice and hit a tree you would rightfully expect me / my insurance to pay for the damage.

Its no different for the dealer or for any company looking after cars for that matter, I'm sure you have seen towing company drivers inspecting cars before moving them then making a note of every mark on it its the same thing.

TOTALLY different!

Of course if the dealer crashes my car they resolve it. But mechanical parts breaking when removed in the correct fashion is a failure of my car, not anything to do with them.

I don't understand why a garage would pay for a sheared bolt, so long as the correct/suitable procedure for removing it was taken at the point it sheared.

I see the issue here is what happened subsequently, but I get the impression some think the events prior tothat are the dealers problem too. Maybe if they are nice, but I don't see it. Certainly in Ian's case I cant think why he would resolve it for free unless he really thought it was his fault.

You would not have a customer come in with a blowing exhaust, appologise and replace it for free would you? What if you touched it and a patch of corrosion fell of and it started blowing. Would you replace it then for free? No!

Dealer had contact with bolt in a suitable fashion and it broke. Not his fault.

Screwed up the removeal of sheared bolt, worth arguing for right or wrong (only as it's a large dealer) as it's geting expensive!

 

[Petermcu]

Thanks for alternate point of view graham. The angle you are taking is one that is making me most nervous regarding my next confrontation with the dealer.
They could argue that they took reasonable steps to complete the work which resulted in failure of a worn component.
Flip side is that at no stage was I made aware of the risks associated with the actions they were advising.
hmmm... still think i'm on more solid ground than they are.

 

[pammy]

I think that's the crux of it peter. They did tell you there was a problem with the bolt - good. From then on it seems to have gone awry. They should have come back to you and told you the risks, what might happen and more importantly what it was likely to cost to give you the option to think about it and accept or reject. From what I've seen I don't think they did that. By their own admission by offering to "support your corner" this has to be an admission of some culpability. It is this that to me makes your case strong and backs up my original comment as to why haven't they just accepted the blame and got on with it. They know they didn't do enough in keeping you informed of the problems they were facing and what the options were.

 

[glojo]

TOTALLY different!

Of course if the dealer crashes my car they resolve it. But mechanical parts breaking when removed in the correct fashion is a failure of my car, not anything to do with them.

I don't understand why a garage would pay for a sheared bolt, so long as the correct/suitable procedure for removing it was taken at the point it sheared.

I see the issue here is what happened subsequently, but I get the impression some think the events prior tothat are the dealers problem too. Maybe if they are nice, but I don't see it. Certainly in Ian's case I cant think why he would resolve it for free unless he really thought it was his fault.

You would not have a customer come in with a blowing exhaust, appologise and replace it for free would you? What if you touched it and a patch of corrosion fell of and it started blowing. Would you replace it then for free? No!

Dealer had contact with bolt in a suitable fashion and it broke. Not his fault.

Screwed up the removeal of sheared bolt, worth arguing for right or wrong (only as it's a large dealer) as it's geting expensive!

I think you and I have raised some very valid points, but we are somewhat in the minority? You post is both constructive and very well stated.

I totally agree that if the technician took due care in attempting to carry out the work and after all his efforts the bolt shears then I will politely suggest....... 'excreta' happens!

It's a pity my questions were not answered as it would have helped give a clearer picture regarding the build-up to this incident.

I take on-board your very valid point
If MY car had a corroded 'bottom' and I asked a garage to change both the gearbox and back-axle oil, what measures would be needed to remove corroded bolts and should I have to pay for all the extra work\labour?

As per my first post, I would expect to be informed of any potential problems that might incur additional expense. Any proficient garage should have insurance that will cover them for incidents that were there fault, and if this damage was caused deliberately, maliciously or through incompetance then the garage should cough up. In my opinion if it was an accident that was a result of the bolt being corroded, then perhaps we need to give this thread more consideration?

John

Edit
Just read Pammy's post and her points also go back to all my questions

 

[fredfloggle]

I think you and I have raised some very valid points, but we are somewhat in the minority? You post is both constructive and very well stated.

I totally agree that if the technician took due care in attempting to carry out the work and after all his efforts the bolt shears then I will politely suggest....... 'excreta' happens!

It's a pity my questions were not answered as it would have helped give a clearer picture regarding the build-up to this incident.

I take on-board your very valid point
If MY car had a corroded 'bottom' and I asked a garage to change both the gearbox and back-axle oil, what measures would be needed to remove corroded bolts and should I have to pay for all the extra work\labour?

As per my first post, I would expect to be informed of any potential problems that might incur additional expense. Any proficient garage should have insurance that will cover them for incidents that were there fault, and if this damage was caused deliberately, maliciously or through incompetance then the garage should cough up. In my opinion if it was an accident that was a result of the bolt being corroded, then perhaps we need to give this thread more consideration?

John

A valid point - we take our cars to a specialist because we expect them to have a detailed knowledge of the vehicle and it's characteristics. If this post had been confined to a broken stud then many of the comments would perhaps been unfair- however the OP went on to discuss the follow up action taken by the garage which may allow us to determine the mechanical skills of the technician , hence we draw the conclusion that perhaps the bolt wasn't broken through corrosion but through heavy-handedness. The bolt is one thing , the broken casting is quite another .

In my opinion if it was an accident that was a result of the bolt being corroded, then perhaps we need to give this thread more consideration?

If they had have done then maybe they wouldn't have broken the bolt.

 

[Silestanix]

Absolutely, I've always dealt with independents. Frequently asking them to bodge things which I should really fix properly!

All it takes is a simple 'phone call, as I've had many times in the past. For instance, on my 5 series touring, the rear wiper assembly was seized and needed to come out. They called me, and said "It's refusing to budge... We can try harder/use mole wrench but it will possibly crack your rear screen".

Me- "Yes, no problem, GO AHEAD ANYWAY".. MY RISK!

No consultation- THEIR RISK! If it gets to the point it's going to possibly break something, you ask!

Exactly...Unless you've been told beforehand that something may break during repair and that if it does then you will have to foot the bill if you agree...If anything breaks, then they should fix it.

Lets flipside this...say, If you borrow a dealers courtesy car for example, they do one of those vehicle sheets stating the condition of the vehicle, etc. If something then falls off due to wear and tear while you have the vehicle, I don't know about anyone else, but I personally can be pretty damn sure that they will pin it on you and ensure that you pay for it because the passenger door inside opening handle broke in a 52 plate Vito the dealer loaned to me when mine was in for repairs; luckily for me it wasn't expensive.

I wasn't to know it would break with wear and tear but as it was in my care, it's a matter of principle that I give back the vehicle as it came to me. Same should apply with the dealer in the case of this topic. It's the least they can do...!

 

[crockers]

You have to bear in mind its not just a case of claiming off their insurance....insurance premiums are based on claims experience - so if too many claims come in the premiums go through the roof....so they will be reluctant to make the claim...or they may have a bad claims record to date...

 

[Silestanix]

You have to bear in mind its not just a case of claiming off their insurance....insurance premiums are based on claims experience - so if too many claims come in the premiums go through the roof....so they will be reluctant to make the claim...or they may have a bad claims record to date...

Understandable...but the customer shouldn't have to suffer because of an issue between the dealer and their insurance, or any other aspect of admin/finance/insurance.

I'd be extremely hacked off if it was my car...I'd definately want to speak to the dealer principle about it...not a complaint at first because the principle may pulls strings and get the car sorted. If this wasn't the case however, then there would be nothing stopping me from lodging a complaint to DCUK/MBUK and writing to them calmly but firmly.

If BMW are anything to go by, when a radiator was fitted in my E34 and the alarm siren wire was cut whilst it was in their care (They re-wired and fitted a new one F.O.C thankfully) , MB will get this sorted out. I find it appaling, especially as it's an expensive AMG car.

If only Ian's 124 works was all over the country...it'd be a better place. Looks like we'll have to clone Ian and his works, somehow...

 

[grober]

Did you authorise them to remove the bolt=yes.
Did you authorise them to break the gearbox casing =no.

ITS NOT YOUR PROBLEM-- ITS THEIR PROBLEM---THEY SHOULD DEAL WITH IT.

Accidents like this do happen when working on corroded components but any garage worth their salt will be aware of this. Jaymanek has stated that it may be possible to repair the box casing with some specialist alloy welding. Ian has stated that he always drills out bolts like these. He has learned from bitter experience that this is the best approach---something that MB dealers should know, they may even have a written protocol for it on their WIS??-- I'm sure this is not the first seized gearbox bolt they have come across. They should be well aware of the possible problems that might occur. You are paying premium labour rates to get your car repaired and for that you should expect a premium service. Read what MB say about their servicing on their website.



Taking your car to a Mercedes-Benz Authorised Repairer gives you the satisfaction of knowing that the technicians who work on it have met our exacting standards of competence and efficiency. They keep abreast of product developments. They’ll accurately assess your service needs. And they’ll only use approved quality parts.

We are constantly striving to improve our service to you, the customer. In fact, we’ve come up with a plan to ensure you receive the best possible service at Mercedes-Benz Authorised Repairers.

- We book you in at a time that suits you.
- We give you your very own service team manager.
- We talk you through the work that needs to be done.
- Our specialist service teams get the very best out of your
Mercedes-Benz.
- We’re always on call to keep you updated and won't carry out any additional work without contacting you.
- We take the time to explain what we’ve done.


Time for them to live up to their publicity!

 

[mattc]

Grober's post hits the nail on the head.

You pays your money you should get your service. I do; thats why I go to 124 works

 

[jaymanek]

We run a garage business as some of you will be aware.

Through experience, my father is aware of any issues that may crop up for any given job and he always warns the customer of the risks involved.
For example,
-MOT failures such as wheel bearings.. i always hear my dad quote "we will tighten if we can otherwise it may need a new bearing, cost XXX"
- We will try and un seize your calipers but if they are stuck, the cost of a new caliper will be XXX

now in some cases we cannot foresee an issue.. yesterday morning, our lads had an issue with a golf after changing the cam belt, some issue with the distributor, but the customer was adament his car was running fine before..so we had to find a new distributor and hence we ended up making a loss on the job...

it happens and workshops have to deal with it, no use blaming the customer...

the point is they should have made the risks crystal clear to you and warned you of potential costs...

you will win this case if you persist..

 

[television]

Jays post above is no different to my service department, I tell the customer if there is going to be a problem, should some difficulty arise, then we all know where we stand

 

[crockers]

Taking your car to a Mercedes-Benz Authorised Repairer gives you the satisfaction of knowing that the technicians who work on it have met our exacting standards of competence and efficiency.Does this mean they are trained to use a lump hammer? They keep abreast of product developments. They’ll accurately assess your service needs. And they’ll only use approved quality parts.must have been a MB approved lump hammer.

We are constantly striving to improve our service to you, the customer. In fact, we’ve come up with a plan to ensure you receive the best possible service at Mercedes-Benz Authorised Repairers.We'll smile as we use the lump hammer

- We book you in at a time that suits you.
- We give you your very own service team manager.So he can call you personally to tell you the lump hammer didnt work
- We talk you through the work that needs to be done.Unless we need to use the lump hammer.
- Our specialist service teams get the very best out of your
Mercedes-Benz.With a lump hammer?
- We’re always on call to keep you updated and won't carry out any additional work without contacting you.Opps we broke it...
- We take the time to explain what we’ve done. We used --- yes you guessed it...................a lump hammer..


Time for them to live up to their publicity!

See its all in the translation

 

[st13phil]

I know that there is a distinct possibility that inappropriate use of force or method resulted in the broken casing, but I do think that the automatic assumption that this was the case by many of the posters in this thread is just that: an assumption. And unless someone actually owns up to having used BF&I, then you're probably going to struggle to prove that's what caused it.

The dealer was under a duty to take reasonable care of the car while it was in their posession, and to carry out such repairs as the customer authorised to a satisfactory standard using appropriate techniques and an appropriate level of skill. As has been pointed out by others already, those responsibilites do not automatically extend to the repair or replacement of everything that breaks while they are working on it. Bearing that in mind, it would be wise to talk with the dealership about what they're prepared to do to remedy the situation rather than laying down the law about the rights of the customer. If they are reasonable then it is more than likely that an acceptable outcome will result. If they are not then without some sort of admission of culpability on their part it could be very difficult to prove that they are responsible for breaking the gearbox casing through incompetence.

BTW, although this may not be the case here I have seen an example of corrosion in threads causing an aluminium alloy component to fracture radially from a tapped hole. An attempt to remove the bolt resulted in the housing splitting along the already present fracture line. It was only by carefully looking at the broken pieces that you could see evidence that part of the fracture was new and part of it was old. As someone said in an earlier post "Sh*t happens".

 

[Petermcu]

I think you and I have raised some very valid points, but we are somewhat in the minority? You post is both constructive and very well stated.

I totally agree that if the technician took due care in attempting to carry out the work and after all his efforts the bolt shears then I will politely suggest....... 'excreta' happens!

It's a pity my questions were not answered as it would have helped give a clearer picture regarding the build-up to this incident.

I take on-board your very valid point
If MY car had a corroded 'bottom' and I asked a garage to change both the gearbox and back-axle oil, what measures would be needed to remove corroded bolts and should I have to pay for all the extra work\labour?

As per my first post, I would expect to be informed of any potential problems that might incur additional expense. Any proficient garage should have insurance that will cover them for incidents that were there fault, and if this damage was caused deliberately, maliciously or through incompetance then the garage should cough up. In my opinion if it was an accident that was a result of the bolt being corroded, then perhaps we need to give this thread more consideration?

John

Edit
Just read Pammy's post and her points also go back to all my questions

John I have addressed your questions in post #18.

I will be speaking to MB later today and am hoping to come to an agreement regarding the matter. I appreciate the points of view so far although still believe that they took unnecessary risks without expressing them to me.
I was not aware that any of the underside was particularly rusty (thought it was just the panels they were shoddy!)
Naturally there are more complications as to replace the gearbox (casing or not) will disturb other corroded components that could lead to further problems. Am expecting to take the restoration of these areas on the chin to get the work done.
As always it comes down to communication.
Its hard keeping up with you guys!! the comments have all been much approeciated. Will update later today.

 

[glojo]

Its hard keeping up with you guys!! the comments have all been much approeciated. Will update later today.

Good luck and fingers crossed everything works out for you.

The written word never travels very well and I was merely asking some very significant questions that needed to be discussed.

John

 

[DansSlk]

TOTALLY different!

Of course if the dealer crashes my car they resolve it. But mechanical parts breaking when removed in the correct fashion is a failure of my car, not anything to do with them.

I don't understand why a garage would pay for a sheared bolt, so long as the correct/suitable procedure for removing it was taken at the point it sheared.

I see the issue here is what happened subsequently, but I get the impression some think the events prior tothat are the dealers problem too. Maybe if they are nice, but I don't see it. Certainly in Ian's case I cant think why he would resolve it for free unless he really thought it was his fault.

You would not have a customer come in with a blowing exhaust, appologise and replace it for free would you? What if you touched it and a patch of corrosion fell of and it started blowing. Would you replace it then for free? No!

Dealer had contact with bolt in a suitable fashion and it broke. Not his fault.

Screwed up the removeal of sheared bolt, worth arguing for right or wrong (only as it's a large dealer) as it's geting expensive!

I think its exactly the same neither the owner nor dealer are going to be able to prove how this happened or if proper procedure was being followed.

Your post relies on the dealer following the correct procedure but do you know if they did? do you think asking them will provide an honest answer?, unless you actually stand over the tech at all times its impossible to say exactly what happened.

The dealer will of course blame the customer and the customer the dealer.

At the end of the day they have come across a (possibly) corroded bolt and they had to remove it fair enough they told the owner but they did not mention the risks and now he needs a new gearbox, the OP never knew what damage this could cause but authorized it anyway nor did he attempt to remove the bolt himself its not his problem and a simple call to MBUK would resolve this situation in a heartbeat.

If they had explained from the start this could lead to a new box at XXX then i don't think i would have a problem with it but they did not, posts 47 49 50 and 52 are right on the money.

To break the casing for god's sake they where not messing around with it, and we are talking about the Drayton Group here so the cost of a new gearbox is gonna be like a fly pissing in the ocean to them but the huge amount of points they would win from the customer for service and the fact that he would naturally inform others of the good resolution cannot be quantified in money.

 

[Petermcu]

I've been all over the place for the last 3 weeks and I thought I would update with the current situation as it is still relatively interesting.

In my last conversation with Mercedes I agreed to go down to the dealership and review the damage to the casing and the state of the 'patch' repair to discuss the way forward.
I turned up there last week and was talked through events that lead to the cracked casing and preferred repair with their head technician. He appeared to be a good bloke and his explanations where robust and clear.
- The effort to shear the head of the bolt was not great as all bolts were removed by hand without significant lever and whilst removing the thread using normal techniques the casing cracked.
- He stated that this risk was not foreseeable and was more than likely the result of existing corrossion or damage.
- He stated that he was very confident that the subsequent repair to the casing and felt that due to the location and loading of the connection there was very little risk of further problems with the area.

I stated that I would feel more confident if this repair was approved my Mercedes and covered by their warranty however was told that;
- Mercedes warrant only their parts or vehicle if under a warranty agreement. Servicing of the vehicle is covered by the dealership and has nothing to do with Mercedes therefore this was an issue only between myself and the dealer.

I asked if there was an option to replace the gearbox and was told:
- The dealership is happy that the repair made to the vehicle is satisfactory and will stand by its workmanship for a given period (to be agreed) and if further problems were to occur they would investigate sharing the cost of a new casing or gearbox.

I have reviewed the trading standards website and would like to point out two statements that make me feel that what has been suggested is reasonable: (http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?file=ADV0046-1011.txt)

'The car was damaged at the garage
The garage has a general duty of care to look after your vehicle while it is in its possession. If the car is damaged at the garage due to staff negligence, repairs, or their cost, it will be the garage's responsibility.'

'If a fault has not been correctly diagnosed or not repaired properly, you should allow the garage the opportunity to rectify it. If the garage fails to do so, you may be entitled to get the work done elsewhere and recover the cost from the garage.'

They have stated that their repair is sound therefore there is no need to consider a replacement gearbox. He did state that if the crack had been in a critical location then they would have investigated this option immediately.

As far as I can see they are doing what is required by law at this stage and on top of this have agreed to 3 inspections throughout the year to ensure the repair is as robust as they expect.

I am awaiting a letter to confirm this arrangement before accepting the vehicle and feel that there is no recourse other than the above. I am still a little concerned that once I drive off with the car and the sump falls off that I will shoulder the complete repair however as it stands that looks to be a risk I have to accept.

So that all about closes the issue. I hope that all of you never have to go through the above as it's a right inconvenience and unnecessary stress.

 

[crockers]

get the meeting documented..

write to them outlining the meeting and get them to agree that that is the case..

I personally wouldnt be happy with this without an independent engineer (gearbox) verifying that what they say is correct...chosen by me and paid for my me and then for the garage to reimburse me.

Good luck