Motorbike rant :(

[Shude]

My bike inssurance is 30% of the cost my car insurance (excellent value actually) when my car is a slow old bus in comparison with my bike and I travel in different timezones if you look at average speeds. My bike is also worth more than my car and has to be more at risk from theft.

Insurance is all about statistics - why then would my bike insurance be so much cheaper unless it is considered to be less of a claim risk?

Insurance is also about potential damage to a 3rd party. If a car collides with another car then the damage will probably be similar, if a bike collides with a car the car will almost definitely come off better and will cost less to repair. Remember insurance is about money rather than anything else!

 

[blassberg]

And yet its common (not accepted) practice to use the attributes of your bike to make progress

or of your high performance vee-hickle :bannana:

 

[Sp!ke]

Insurance is also about potential damage to a 3rd party. If a car collides with another car then the damage will probably be similar, if a bike collides with a car the car will almost definitely come off better and will cost less to repair. Remember insurance is about money rather than anything else!

Equally, if a car collides with a bike (or vice versa), the bike will often cost more than the car to repair.

Remember, they only need to payout at all if it is the insured at fault.

 

[Howard]

I go along with Spike's intrepretation, BUT only an idiot overtakes on the approach to a road junction and from experiences car drivers simply come out with the pathetic excuse of not seeing the bike. This to me is totally unacceptable, bikes do not just appear.

John

Not often i disagee with you John but...... Lets use an example of a guy waiting to turn right, he has 5 cars queued behind him....

The oncoming traffic stops, he checks his mirrors , they are clear.....

But, Mr Biker who is zooming down the road behind thinks ' a queue , i'll just shoot down the outside as its clear ' (he doesn't know that it is clear because the cars on the other carriageway have stopped to let the guy in the front of the queue turn right) he shoots down without really slowing from his 30/40 mph....

The time taken to pass 5 stationary cars at 30/40 mph is easily short enough that the time taken from the driver checking his mirrors o the bike colliding with him is possible that it was empty when e checked..

So no, not pathetic, but quite feasible ...

sorry to disagree with you John you know i have utmost respect for you

 

[Dieselman]

Equally, if a car collides with a bike (or vice versa), the bike will often cost more than the car to repair.

Remember, they only need to payout at all if it is the insured at fault.

I think this is unlikely due to the ease of bike repair, and also the high value claims are often for personal injury.
The potential for injury to a third party is much higher in a car than on a bike. A bike may hit a pedestrian but a car can easily take out a bus queue.

 

[Sp!ke]

The oncoming traffic stops, he checks his mirrors , they are clear.....

There's the floor in your arguement. If he had actually looked with his eyes whilst stopping to consider that there might be a bike filtering through then he would find that it wasnt in fact safe to turn.

Two things here

1. Dont rely on mirrors.

2. Dont just consider other cars.. you have to consider all other road users - this means taking account of what bikes normally do in the same way as you take into account what horses might do if you dont give them a wide berth.

 

[Howard]

There's the floor in your arguement. If he had actually looked with his eyes whilst stopping to consider that there might be a bike filtering through then he would find that it wasnt in fact safe to turn.

Two things here

1. Dont rely on mirrors.

2. Dont just consider other cars.. you have to consider all other road users - this means taking account of what bikes normally do in the same way as you take into account what horses might do if you dont give them a wide berth.

It wouldn't matter whether he looked in his mirror or over his shoulder, the road would still have been clear when he looked over his shoulder, unless he turns the corner whilst looking over his shoulder the whole time, but then he would knock the guy off the bike coming the opposite way because he is looking backwards....

Sp!ke the point i am getting at here is not filtering bikes but the idiots that fly down the side of traffic without slowing ...

We could split hairs all day over mirrors etc, what if the guy had a neck brace on and couldn't turn his head

I have utmost respect for bikers (you wouldn't get me on one) but not the idiots who force people over and ride arrogantly and ignorantly....


floor ..... flaw sorry i'll get my coat

 

[High-Lo]

Not often i disagee with you John but...... Lets use an example of a guy waiting to turn right, he has 5 cars queued behind him....

The oncoming traffic stops, he checks his mirrors , they are clear.....

But, Mr Biker who is zooming down the road behind thinks ' a queue , i'll just shoot down the outside as its clear ' (he doesn't know that it is clear because the cars on the other carriageway have stopped to let the guy in the front of the queue turn right) he shoots down without really slowing from his 30/40 mph....

The time taken to pass 5 stationary cars at 30/40 mph is easily short enough that the time taken from the driver checking his mirrors o the bike colliding with him is possible that it was empty when e checked..

So no, not pathetic, but quite feasible ...

sorry to disagree with you John you know i have utmost respect for you

Yes a remember a TV ad not so long ago which acted out the same scenario. It was the one where a bike attempts to overtake a car that is signalling and turning right (you can hear the car's indicators clicking) "Now you see him..."

We didn't ever find out who was at fault but the main point was that car drivers should watch out for bikes.

 

[Sp!ke]

I think we are all in agreement that there are a number of future victims that both drive and ride like idiots. Theres probably nothing we can do to save them.

Is it even legal to drive with a neck brace on Howard? Sounds unlikely to be legal IMO.

 

[prprandall51]

"Despite the myths about poor car drivers, in nearly two thirds of the Essex motorcycle deaths the motorcycle rider was found to be at fault."

On a serious note, this is an interesting statement that conflicts with the national ones.

Sounds like Essex Police are referencing all motorcycle fatalities within their area - not just those involving another vehicle - the majority of which are single vehicle incidents. This would then concur with the national average. And entirely proves the point about mad bikers in my opinion.

Who can fail to be awestruck by the map at the Cross Gates service station in central Wales that shows where all the motorcyclists have killed themselves in single vehicle incidents? It is basically a map of central Wales that is covered - literally covered - in little dots, each a sad testiment to these so-called "seasoned" riders actual lack of judgement and skill, which - until their demise -was clearly in total contradiction, I suspect, to their own mighty self belief in their brilliance.

My 2p: Even if a motorcyclist believes that are gifted enough to pull off a weave / filter / whatever manoeuvre between two lanes of traffic, they are taking up valuable "buffer" space that the car driver will have mentally assigned him/herself for the purposes of hazard avoidance. At the end of the day, no matter how well bikers think they can ride, that road space "belongs" at that moment to the car driver not to the biker. Taking it from the car driver robs them of options and escape routes - that is why the law rightly recognises it to be an illegal maneouvre. Never seen a Police bike do it, never seen a RoSPA rider do it, never seen a IAM rider do it.

Can you tell that it hacks me off?

Philip

 

[Sp!ke]

My 2p: Even if a motorcyclist believes that are gifted enough to pull off a weave / filter / whatever manoeuvre between two lanes of traffic, they are taking up valuable "buffer" space that the car driver will have mentally assigned him/herself for the purposes of hazard avoidance. At the end of the day, no matter how well bikers think they can ride, that road space "belongs" at that moment to the car driver not to the biker. Taking it from the car driver robs them of options and escape routes - that is why the law rightly recognises it to be an illegal maneouvre. Never seen a Police bike do it, never seen a RoSPA rider do it, never seen a IAM rider do it.

Can you tell that it hacks me off?

Philip

Whilst I kind of agree with your buffer space arguement, I feel I have to comment on the bit about filtering being illegal.

It is not illegal, I see police doing it regularly and when out doing advanced rider training with police instructors it is actively encouraged albeit with extreme caution and only when conditions permit.

As for the amount of deaths... yes its an absolute tragedy but the figures are improving year on year with stricter training and testing. there's always going to be those that think they are somehow better than others and perform silly moves that end up taking their own lives. It isnt helped by the motorcycle press who encourage outrageous behaviour on the road instead of pointing people in the direction of a track.

 

[prprandall51]

...filtering being illegal.

It is not illegal, I see police doing it regularly and when out doing advanced rider training with police instructors it is actively encouraged albeit with extreme caution and only when conditions permit.

Hi Spike, I am sorry, but I cannot agree.

The kind of maneouvre that Silver Saloon started this thread off by describing is absolutely illegal in every way. I have done my share of riding out with Police motorcycle instructors and none that I know would condone any such activity. I don't think they would even do it in a pursuit - they would rather let the crim go than loose their life in the process - however remote the possibility.

Perhaps this is the acid test:

Were any of these bike riders to have to retake their driving test or perhaps take a RoSPA / IAM test and, during that test, the opportunity arose to pass between two lanes of fast moving vehicles on a dual carriageway, or alternatively the opportunity cropped up on a city street to "make progress" past a line of stationary traffic by moving to the opposite side of the road and driving directly into the line of oncoming vehicles causing them to have to repostion themselves to let them through, would they do it?

Not, I suspect, if they wanted to pass the test.

Even if we cannot find a specific piece of legislation that addresses these issues, the Police would treat such happenings as careless driving or worse.

Sorry to keep ranting, but this behaviour really does hack me off.

Philip

 

[Sp!ke]

Ahh sorry, I thought you were referring to filtering as a whole rather than what SilverSaloon witnessed.

Actually I was quite surprised whith what the Police considered OK when I initially went on a ride out with them. Speeds well into three figures were not discouraged as long as the conditions were right. As was some quite aggressive filtering.

That said, I have still to meet a police motorcycle instructor with as many miles or as much experience under his belt on a bike than I. I dont necessarilly agree with all aspects of their training either.

 

[kikkthecat]

Strangely enough I just witnessed an accident this afternoon.

I was driving along a narrow street with parked cars spaced out on either side.
A car was coming towards me and at that point there was a parked car in front of me. No problem, I'll stop to let him by and use his side of the road when he's done with it.
As soon as I stopped, he came through and a motorcyclist who took offence at my giving way to someone who had right of way in the first place decided he could make the gap.
He overtook me as I was stopped and accellerated straight into the grill of the oncoming Vectra. Stupidity at it's finest, he wasn't interested in what may have been coming the other way, only passing what was in front.

The Vectra driver was understandably angry because his car was wrecked by someone who obviously believed car rules and bike rules are different.

As for the rider, he was cut and bruised but not seriously hurt but I honestly dont care, he deserved what he got and maybe more.

 

[glojo]

Not often i disagee with you John but...... Lets use an example of a guy waiting to turn right, he has 5 cars queued behind him....

Hi Howard,
Many apologies for NOT making myself clear. My fault entirely.

I was agreeing with Spikes interpretation of the figures about accidents.

I totally agree with your point about overtaking vehicles that are intending to turn right: on their offside.

That is plain Stooopid and inexcusable. It is quite simply an accident waiting to happen. We are all talking about overtaking on the nearside, and this is an ideal example of where it is lawful...... When safe to do so (what a cop out)

I'll have another read of the Dieselman\Spike post just in case. (I have had to have a lot of medication so the old brain is adled)

Sorry again for the confusion, and I think we are both in agreement.

John

 

[glojo]

Having re-read Spike's reference:

***************************
JUNCTIONS

The most common accident type was another vehicle crossing the motorcyclist's path to enter or leave a side road or private drive.

At roundabouts, the most common accident type was another vehicle entering the roundabout in the path of a motorcyclist already on the roundabout.

Over 1 in 5 of all motorcycle accidents were of this type, where the motorcyclist had right of way.
****************************

This is the point I am agreeing with. Cars entering, or crossing into the path of the motorcycle.

The motorcyclist is the main problem to himself, but accidents between bikes and other vehicles are generally as a result of the above reference.

HOWEVER

Spike might well be an extremely fast highly experienced race going type biker, but I respectfully disagree with some of his posts and would like to think the Police motor cyclists he goes out with are perhaps on an ego trip and are trying to impress the wrong person.

Spike has reached speeds on a motorcycle that I can only have nightmares about. I cannot imagine anyone going faster than him on a public highway!! (I mean that in the nicest of terms) It is always a case of horses for courses. I would NEVER try to emulate a bike racer, they extract the ultimate nth degree of performance from a motorcycle, but that does not make them good public road riders.

I have stated that whilst instructing pupils I have had oncoming vehicles flash their headlights, or sometimes brake when they have seen one of my pupils overtaking.

BUT...... If that pupil had genuinely inconvienanced that car driver, then that pupil would be in for some criticism. There is no excuse for any private road user to actually 'carve' other road users up. Those drivers that have flashed their lights have merely been wrong in their assessment of the manouvre. (I hope I have explained myself)

I except that on advance courses speeds might get 'quite high' but I liked to teach my students the finer arts of 'making progress' and we very rarely went on roads that suited three figure speeds. Those of you that visit Devon will be aware of the roads we have down here, and I have had numerous boy racers that needed extra tuition on keeping their speeds to a high enough satisfactory level. Down here a dual carriageway, is a country lane with a grass verge in the middle. Janner might know the coastal routes between Plymouth, Kingsbridge, Totnes to Torquay These are ideal roads for teaching a rider how to improve all their roadcraft. (Not how to wind open the throttle)

I am totally on the side of prprandall and endorse everything he has said.

Bye for now,
John

 

[jeremytaylor]

Janner might know the coastal routes between Plymouth, Kingsbridge, Totnes to Torquay These are ideal roads for teaching a rider how to improve all their roadcraft. (Not how to wind open the throttle)John

I know those roads well. My in-laws live in Bigbury-on-Sea, and off season those roads are a real pleasure. I especially like trying to guess whether the tidal road near Averton Gifford will be passable or not judging by the state of the tide at the mouth of the river!

Anyway, back to the topic. As you know, John, those roads have a number of 'blind bends'. Just the sort that, if you cut the corner on a bike, you are likely to meet a crumple-zone-free Massey Ferguson coming the other way. How many bikers have met a tragic end in this way?

 

[glojo]

As you know, John, those roads have a number of 'blind bends'. Just the sort that, if you cut the corner on a bike, you are likely to meet a crumple-zone-free Massey Ferguson coming the other way. How many bikers have met a tragic end in this way?

Spot on Jeremy,
These are the type of roads where you can actually teach road users the Roadcraft that makes a better driver\rider. (might not be to suitable for cars)

Fast dual carriageways and open 'A' roads are perhaps a good foundation, but to get the most out of a course the roads I listed are ideal and yes, you do have Massey Ferguson tractors, cattle, and holiday makers all walking along the road, as I previously stated any mistake on a bike can be your last.

No cutting corners, but positioning, positioning all helps to make progress.

Sorry about drifting off topic, but as prprandall will confirm (hopefully) riding a motorcycle to the system, and riding it well, is exhilarating. I am merely laying here reminiscing Happy days.

I just wish everyone would attempt to treat everyone else with a grin, a smile a wave and good manners. It would be foolhardy to believe that all bikers are saints. I have seen more than my fair share of idiots that are on borrowed time, and it was in Cornwall where some Gallah actually videoed there stupidity of madness on two wheels. My Darwinian theory raised its ugly head and the rider is now directing films up in that big studio in the sky. I also spent four months in a rehabilitation unit which had far to many motor cyclists that thought they could ride faster than their capibilities. Not a pleasant sight, especially as there lives were forever altered.

Happy motoring,
John
John

 

[graeme73s]

The best money I have ever spent was with the Californian Superbike School. They are based in England by the way. They run schools at race circuits and teach you what they believe are sixteen key points to riding a bike safely, with confidence and in full control. They cater for all levels of ability from novices to racers. Throttle control, counter steering, vanishing points etc etc. I had a TTS Hayabusa which made 175bhp at the back wheel so a failrly quick bike. After taking the four levels of training and a suspension set up day my riding ability and confidence went up by 1000%. A mate also went and he has been on the police rider training courses and the ROSPA course. He learnt more in one day than all the other courses put together. Did it help. Well a little while after completing level 2 I was out on the bike a car pulls out of a side turning half way accross my side of the road (didn't see me) and stops when they do see me but its to late. Normal reaction would have been panic, slam on the brakes and probably still hit the front wing of the car and piroette over the bonnet. Reality applied the brakes hard and counter steered around the front of the car no panic, no injuries and no insurance claim. Its a pity no one runs these types of training courses for car drivers might actually safe some lives.

 

[petef]

some bikers are lethal...When i was on the motorway the other evening one went straight between me and another car.I was in the outside lane and the other car was in the middle lane. If i had slightly adjusted my cars position he would have been dead....yes Howard i have to agree squirting bikers with washer fluid can be very dangerous and childish...i only do it to pedal bikers in tights who ride two or three a breast and stop you from passing...its better fun when there are a team of them...i know, i know, its irresponsible,childish, but so is blocking up traffic..