Motorbike rant :(

[Spinal]

Michele - you (as an Italian) have the advantage, as do most of europe, of having a population that allows mopeds to be ridden at 14/15/16 and a car at an older age. This means that the general populace has at least a basic understanding of the perils of motorcyling....

Someone (biker) once suggested that before passing ones car test, one should ride a moped through the city centre, at rush hour, with a flickering headlight and the left indicator wired permenantly on (and the front brake disabled).... you would know fear then!

Actually, funnily enough, I have NEVER ridden a motorbike nor moped in Italy... I am of Italian birth, but actually only lived there until I was 2, and then again when I was 9. (I travelled alot...)

As for that test, it sounds a little draconian... I like it! Just add some 'L' plates! Its amazing how little people respect a rider, especially when they have been in a queue for hours with nothing more to do than grunt at the riders moving without much resistance... could it be jealousy ?

Michele

 

[glojo]

Crikeys,
I have little time, or respect for bikers that 'undertake' and I am using a common sense definition of undertaking here (not in slow moving\crawling traffic etc)

I have little time or respect for ignorant car drivers that reverse out of parking spaces or driveways (you are putting a hunk of car out onto the road before having any degree of visibillity)

I cannot believe any sensible sane person would deliberate contemplate having a head on collision!!!!!

A motor cycle is coming at you and its on the wrong side of the road, if it hits you and the rider comes through the windscreen, your DEAD, dead as the rider........ You go up to the Pearly Gates and say it wasn't your fault!!!!! YOU ARE STILL DEAD!!!!

We all say things we sometimes don't really mean and hopefully this was one instance.

Modern motorcycles are extremely powerful, and what might appear dangerous MIGHT be perfectly safe. Silver Saloon was annoyed at a riders antics and felt it was worth putting pen to paper, or finger to plastic, none of us were present so I feel it only fair to accept that he was annoyed so... (stick out tongue) to the rider concerned.

Have a nice day, and to everyone that cannot reverse into a parking bay, or their driveway. (pet hate and techically it is an offence)

John

 

[Motard]

Into the fray! Maybe I will get my red reputation points back!
I am a passionate, ex racer biker of many years and I have many miles under my belt in UK and France.
Here bikers have a good relationship with car drivers, invariably when we come up behind a car they move over to let us through. In UK it is often the opposite, some car drivers go out of their way to block bikes and some actually make like they want to knock us off! So many UK drivers are incensed about bikes overtaking. I have no idea why this is so, I found it like that, such a pity as we all have to share the roads. Much easier and less stressful for all following the French example.

 

[Spinal]

Into the fray! Maybe I will get my red reputation points back!
I am a passionate, ex racer biker of many years and I have many miles under my belt in UK and France.
Here bikers have a good relationship with car drivers, invariably when we come up behind a car they move over to let us through. In UK it is often the opposite, some car drivers go out of their way to block bikes and some actually make like they want to knock us off! So many UK drivers are incensed about bikes overtaking. I have no idea why this is so, I found it like that, such a pity as we all have to share the roads. Much easier and less stressful for all following the French example.

what relationship is there between mobs of angry students and bikers? The one between MAS (mobs of angy students) and cars doesn't seem great right now...
Michele

 

[Motard]

what relationship is there between mobs of angry students and bikers? The one between MAS (mobs of angy students) and cars doesn't seem great right now...
Michele

Dunno Michele, I haven't heard about any MAS, where is that happening?

 

[Howard]

Can i just clarify here...... i was pretty vocal earlier on in this thread and i don't want people getting the wrong idea ...

1) I have no problem with bikers overtaking / undertaking as long as it doesn't impede my forward progress / make me have to jump on the brakes etc.. sometimes when i'm in slow moving motorway traffic I watch the bikers going down the middle of the cars and am secretly envious

2) I have no problem with the majority of bikers in the towns , who will 'pop out' advance a bit down a queue of traffic and then 'pop back in again when a car comes the other way.

3) Under no circumstances would i 'aim' for a biker in any way shape or form (even a chav on a scooter )

4) I do have a problem with bikers who just fly down the wrong side of the road (in the middle of the lane) when there is a queue of traffic and i am coming the other way, as i stated earlier, i will not risk damage to my car just so some ignorant arrogant biker can zoom through - If they're not Foden lorries then you don't need the whole opposite side of the road do you...

5) With regards to point 4 if the road is wide enough for me to drift over to the left and let the ignorant biker past then i will, as its not impedeing my progress but i'm damned if i am going to pull in or risk my wheels or mirrors.

I just don't see why its us who should risk our cars for these people ( in the above circumstances point 4, not all the time) I think the problem is is that there are a lot more 'recreational' riders who really don't have a clue, which has tarred the more experienced ones with the same brush. Also what doesn't help is the explosion of the 'scooter set' who by and large are really dangerous to a man...

Please don't anyone think i like confrontation or seek it out, i don't.

 

[Shude]

Are you sure about this. I thought it was illegal to reverse onto a main road from a side road..

I just looked it up, good old highway code

177: Do not reverse from a side road into a main road. When using a driveway, reverse in and drive out if you can.

A driveway is basically a private side-road!

 

[glojo]

Here bikers have a good relationship with car drivers, invariably when we come up behind a car they move over to let us through. In UK it is often the opposite,

Hi Motard,
Nice to read your posts again.

What is the law in France regarding overtaking on the nearside? I certainly miss the freedom of riding a motorbike and the pleasure of being at 'one' with the machine. Happy days

John

 

[Spinal]

Can i just clarify here...... i was pretty vocal earlier on in this thread and i don't want people getting the wrong idea ...

1) I have no problem with bikers overtaking / undertaking as long as it doesn't impede my forward progress / make me have to jump on the brakes etc.. sometimes when i'm in slow moving motorway traffic I watch the bikers going down the middle of the cars and am secretly envious

2) I have no problem with the majority of bikers in the towns , who will 'pop out' advance a bit down a queue of traffic and then 'pop back in again when a car comes the other way.

3) Under no circumstances would i 'aim' for a biker in any way shape or form (even a chav on a scooter )

4) I do have a problem with bikers who just fly down the wrong side of the road (in the middle of the lane) when there is a queue of traffic and i am coming the other way, as i stated earlier, i will not risk damage to my car just so some ignorant arrogant biker can zoom through - If they're not Foden lorries then you don't need the whole opposite side of the road do you...

5) With regards to point 4 if the road is wide enough for me to drift over to the left and let the ignorant biker past then i will, as its not impedeing my progress but i'm damned if i am going to pull in or risk my wheels or mirrors.

I just don't see why its us who should risk our cars for these people ( in the above circumstances point 4, not all the time) I think the problem is is that there are a lot more 'recreational' riders who really don't have a clue, which has tarred the more experienced ones with the same brush. Also what doesn't help is the explosion of the 'scooter set' who by and large are really dangerous to a man...

Please don't anyone think i like confrontation or seek it out, i don't.

I quite agree with that. When I ride around, I do drive on the other side of the road to cut a bit of queue without being forced to thread through cars,but I do pull in as soon as I see a car in the opposite direction; I'm quite scared to meet someone on the other side of the road that thinks "my right of way, my road, you grave"

As for driving and not "avoiding" riders who are on the wrong side on the road when there isn't enough space to avoid them without hitting the curb, I'm shocked any rider would get a driver in such a position. I most certainly would hold fast on course, and secretely hope the rider would be smart to pull back into his lane (then swerving, hitting the curb and killing the innocent grandma on the curb at the last minute when its apparent hes not gonna go back into his lane... )

Michele
P.s. The Word Association Game is at:
www.europolo.net/twag/twag.php
Password: mbc

 

[scotth_uk]

Just going back to the fact posted earlier about the cars being the cause in so many bike accidents....

It is indeed a sad fact, but generally speaking, I bet a lot (not all) of that is down to motorists being unable to predict the behaviour of a bike......?

Ideally, a motorist learns the highway code, which should enable them to use the road and interact with other road users properly.

Example: Upon arriving at an intersection, they should be able to survey the scene and predict the expected behaviour of all vehicles at that time. Check out the lights, the arrows, the signs, the road markings, look at the position of other vehicles, check pedestrians and crossings, etc. You know what I mean. Apply your knowledge of the code to the place you are in.

When a biker doesn't obey the published road rules, how can you expect motorists to predict their behaviour? Sure, we should do much more than rely on the code - check your mirrors, look over your shoulder, etc. But you cannot second guess every breach of the highway code by a guy on a bike.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of motorists that don't a) understand the code b) follow it c) take extra precautions. And this contributes to a lot of unnecessary biker deaths and injuries.

At the same time though, you've got to wonder if the numbers would be the same if the bikers were following the nation's published road rules rather than "interpreting them" to suit themselves, or "doing what everyone else is doing".

Reality aside - just how many bikers would be killed if they stayed in their lane like a car does and queued at intersections, remained under the speed limit, etc.

Remember, no-one's really flaming here - it's just a rant thread with some pretty good discussion. We might as well keep it going, as I am actually learning some viewpoint from the bikers amongst us.

 

[Motard]

Hi Motard,
Nice to read your posts again.

What is the law in France regarding overtaking on the nearside? I certainly miss the freedom of riding a motorbike and the pleasure of being at 'one' with the machine. Happy days

John

No idea to be honest John and who would respect it anyway? In Paris they overtake every which way.
There are some really stupid bikers around everywhere and a lot of them die.
There are even more stupid car drivers around, look at the statistics posted earlier about car/bike accidents!
The relationship between bikers and car drivers in the UK is indeed unfortunate but I think it is indicative of the general attitude in the UK.
Some French friends had a months holiday over there this year, when they came back they asked me why everyone is so angry!
Generally I visit the UK once a year and I really notice the difference in the volume of traffic, this year particularly so. Driving from Bournemouth to Taunton on a Thursday afternoon in Sept was like being in a car park! Hardly surprising that frustration turns to anger. Sooner rather than later some very hard decisions will have to be taken over there, I don't know the % road use increases each year but it isn't rocket science to know it cannot continue thus.
Wish I could say that my bike was more fuel efficient than my car then I could get all 'holier than thou' and suggest we all ride bikes. Unfortunately the bike does less mpg than my old 124, maybe I should swap the Blackbird for a moped? Ferraris? AMGs? Bring 'em on!

 

[blassberg]

I bet a lot (not all) of that is down to motorists being unable to predict the behaviour of a bike......?

Disagree. Most is not spotting a bike in the first place.

M40 / A40 into London I find most drivers EXPECT me to undertake as they're not gong to move out of the way. If it's safe to do so (in my opinion) I will.

Filtering should be done at no more than 10mph more than the traffic. That gives you many more options. Police seem to agree and chase relative-speeder filterers.

A car cannot cross you if you go between two adjacent cars - as they know the other car is there.

If there is a gap on one side and a car on the other then you move into the gap, assuming that he may do the same.

Filtering is so safe that I haven't seen an accident caused by it since last Tuesday morning in Acton

 

[Howard]

Could it be that they are not spotted because either :-

a) they are travelling so fast that when the driver checked it was clear but by the time he made the maneuvere it wasn't ?

b) the biker is doing something that no normal person would do, hence it is just not expected ...

c) any combination of a and b.

Even the government video 'Think Bike' shows a guy turning right perfectly legally and a biker comes down the outside of a row of cars in traffic and crashes into his drivers door as he's turning .......who's fault is that ?

 

[Benzowner]

When a biker doesn't obey the published road rules, how can you expect motorists to predict their behaviour? Sure, we should do much more than rely on the code - check your mirrors, look over your shoulder, etc. But you cannot second guess every breach of the highway code by a guy on a bike

My first post on this topic, I am a biker and a Merc owner, there appears to be just a few of us. Why should a biker obey published rules, when the motorcar driver does not. When was the last time any of us stuck to 70mph on a motorway or 30 in a 30 limit. IMO you need to ride a bike to see the appalling standards of motorcar drivers. If it was just about safety, none of us would ride bikes, either motorised or otherwise, but it is not. We ride bikes because we are either too old or overweight to skydive We ride bikes and take calculated risks, exactly the same as when we overtake in a car, it is a calculated risk. On our bikes, we are much more manouverable, BUT, no one can ever predict the unexpected, when a car driver decides to jump the lights and other vehicle rams inot the side be it a motorcycle or otherwise. A recent safety strategy in South Gloucester was SMIDSY, boards all over the place, SORRY MATE I DIDN'T SEE YOU

 

[scotth_uk]

I don't think that there's much disagreement about the equally poor driving standards here by the average motorist - that's a given!

The small size of a bike means that it's frequently in places that a car wouldn't be - no matter how bad the driver of a car was. And I am sure that that precise point causes a fair percentage of the problem. You just cannot predict biker's behaviour as easily as a driver's.

I realise that I am probably the only one who's ever done it, but on the rare occasion I've ever been riding a bike I've always queued with the traffic and always ridden it like I'd drive a car. If there's a jam - I've waited, rather than ridden to the front. I'm exactly the same with my bicycle. I just don't fancy putting my life in the hands of motorists!

Next rant (for the bikers) should be "why don't london's cars have working indicators"? ;-)

 

[Howard]

Next rant (for the bikers) should be "why don't london's cars have working indicators"? ;-)

No , thats just BMW's

 

[Sp!ke]

Even the government video 'Think Bike' shows a guy turning right perfectly legally and a biker comes down the outside of a row of cars in traffic and crashes into his drivers door as he's turning .......who's fault is that ?

This is where you are so very wrong Howard...

The driver is only supposed to turn or cross at a junction when it is safe to do so. The motorcyclist on the other hand is making steady progress maintaining speed and direction and has right of way.

The driver of the car is 100% to blame since he didnt "Think Bike". By not thinking bike, he is driving without due care and attention for other road users.

It seems the campaign was lost on you

To be honest, any bike rider with a few years experience under his belt would have seen this happen so many times that he expects the "I'm sorry I didnt see you" response and slows down and rides very cautiously around junctions - thats not to say he would technically be in the wrong if he didnt , just a little foolish.

And Scott... when the accident statistics show that cars are the major cause of motorcycle fatalities, how do you in your own mind twist that to infer that it was caused by Bikers who Dont "obey the published road rules."

As for reducing deaths by not allowing bikes to filter etc then using your logic I propose that since these fatalties are caused in the main by cars, all cars should be restricted to a maximum speed of say 20 MPH... or failing that ban them altogether since bikes have been around longer anyway.

How about a quick survey for you all.

When going through a set of *green* lights, who amongst us checks both left and right before proceeding through them as a matter of course?

 

[jeremytaylor]

This is where you are so very wrong Howard...

The driver is only supposed to turn or cross at a junction when it is safe to do so. The motorcyclist on the other hand is making steady progress maintaining speed and direction and has right of way.

The driver of the car is 100% to blame since he didnt "Think Bike". By not thinking bike, he is driving without due care and attention for other road users.

BUT if the car driver is indicating while waiting to turn right, then the biker should not be overtaking. The government add doesn't make it clear whether or not the car driver is indicating or not (IIRC).

 

[Dieselman]

BUT if the car driver is indicating while waiting to turn right, then the biker should not be overtaking. The government add doesn't make it clear whether or not the car driver is indicating or not (IIRC).

I agree here.

Either way it is bad practice and possibly illegal to overtake a vehicle that is apparently turning right at a junction.

The biker is in the wrong for overtaking without giving consideration for another road user.

If as a car driver you were to see a car in the middle of the road at a right turn junction, would anyone overtake it?

 

[scotth_uk]

And Scott... when the accident statistics show that cars are the major cause of motorcycle fatalities, how do you in your own mind twist that to infer that it was caused by Bikers who Dont "obey the published road rules."

As for reducing deaths by not allowing bikes to filter etc then using your logic I propose that since these fatalties are caused in the main by cars, all cars should be restricted to a maximum speed of say 20 MPH... or failing that ban them altogether since bikes have been around longer anyway.

Re-reading my post, I realise that the point I was trying to make was not well worded. Sorry for that. Problem between brain and mouth.

I'll try again. With my ignorance, the statistic mentioned is too general for my liking. Sure, cars kill loads of bikers - but how? What I am wondering is if those are 100% mistakes made by drivers where bikers were in the right - OR - the car was just the cause of death. I see them as being two very different issues.

In the first instance, the biker is in the right. The car has clearly done the wrong thing. In the second instance, there could be an element (and personally I think it's going to be very high) of cars being the cause of death, but perhaps with the biker being involved (or perhaps 100%) or to blame.

The other point was being over-simplified for the purpose of the rant. If everyone drove a big blue box, and behaved in a similar fashion (ie. not driving down the wrong side of the road, squeezing through gaps, etc.), would we have the same issues - regardless of speed?

Cars and bikes are always going to clash. We just have to work together to make it safer and better.