new and wanting info on the 190e 2.3 16v

[evo58]

As a former owner of a 190 e,i may be able to pick up what looks like a very straight 2.3 16 v.
The car though is 190 miles from where i live.
I am aware of the points to look for but feel i could do with your experience and advice please.

 

[gbjeppm]

Hello and welcome to the forum, I know nothing about the 2.3 16V 190E, but I am sure somebody will be along soon who does.

Forum member "Will" has a couple of 2.5 190s, it is worth looking at his posts.

 

[Dieselman]

There is a particular weak area for the 2.3-16 and one that muust be checked.
The timing chain is only a single chain and wears itself and the sprockets like mad.

 

[Will]

As Dieselman has said, the achille's heel of the 2.3-16 is the simplex (single row) timing chain.

Basically, the tensioner design was originally flawed. It relied too much on oil pressure to function properly, and this caused the chain to run slightly loose on start up, leading to excessive wear over time.

The sprockets become 'saw toothed', and the guides and tensioning rail become weak. The chain will begin to sound noisy and if you're unlucky, can either jump a tooth or even snap causing catestrophic damage to the head/valves etc. The guide rails have been known to break which obviously wouldn't be too pleasant either.

If the sprockets are worn, and you were to replace the chain/tensioner and guides you are looking at easily £1K+ in parts, plus the same again in labour I would imagine, or a good couple of days work if you DIY.

Other than that, I would advise a search on the forum, I think there's loads of good advice and pointers on here for W201 16v inspections/purchasing.

If I can be of any other help, or if the car is nearby and you'd like me to cast an eye over it, feel free to ask

Will

 

[grober]

The early one's tubular exhaust manifolds were prone to cracking but were strengthened in the later models They also have rear self levelling suspension which can be expensive to repair. The engines have solid tappets on the twin cams so correct clearance is set by shimming them-not an easy job for the inexperienced if the engine is very noisey. The digital trip meter/computer thingy in the centre console rarely works. Genuine body kit/ cladding is getting more difficult to source so check its all in good nick. Dare I suggest this forum is also a very good source of how to's http://www.mercedes190.co.uk/

 

[Dieselman]

Are there no upgrade kits available to convert to duplex chain or timing gears?

 

[Will]

Yep, the standard 'upgrade' would be to fit the 2.5-16 duplex chain, sprockets etc. I haven't priced these parts up but I suspect you'll be looking at similar or higher than the cost of these parts on a 2.3-16 - well over £1000. Might need to change the cam cover as well.

It would have to be a nice/valuable car to warrant this kind of work these days, hence most won't get done Back in the late 80s/early 90s these cars were worth quite a lot so a few got done, possibly even by MB themselves (you wouldn't want a ££££ rebuild more than once I guess!)

Interestingly, I *think* the Evolution-II cars use the simplex chain again. I think it was an issue of space. The proper DTM/race spec ones made over 400bhp!

Will

 

[Dieselman]

A proper race car will use the lightest least frictional parts possible as they only have to last one race.

That's probably why Cosworth opted for a simplex chain to start with, longevity wasn't thought about.

 

[Will]

Possibly, although I'd always assumed it was because back in the early 80s, most MBs used simplex chains, on all of the early M102s at least

To be fair, the tensioner was the real crunch point. A brand new set of simplex components with the revised tensioner should/would last for a very long time IMHO.

Will

 

[grober]

Thought you guys might appreciate this pic of the 1991 DTM short stroke EVO II engine. It developed around 350bhp at 9,300rpm. The crankshaft was relieved of 4 of the 8 crank counterweights and it ran an uprated chain drive gearwheel oil pump. Ignition and fuel injection was controlled with a Bosch Motronic MS 2.7 system and dispensed with the standard airflow meter and sensor plate. I apologise for the photo being on two pages.

 

[W210 Fan]

Will - are any of the sprockets and chains standard `engineering` parts that can be sourced from RS/Fenner/BSL etc I assume for a lot less than £1k, if you were to take a set in they would be able to match them for you if they could......

 

[Will]

Will - are any of the sprockets and chains standard `engineering` parts that can be sourced from RS/Fenner/BSL etc I assume for a lot less than £1k, if you were to take a set in they would be able to match them for you if they could......

Poss-ibly. This was a good few years ago when I had my old 2.3-16. Both of my current cars are 2.5-16 engined varients and aren't susceptable to this issue (hence I haven't really investigated any further)

To be honest, it's the amount of different parts where the money is. New chain, tensioner, tensioning rail, two other guide rails, the crank sprocket, one or two idler sprockets, plus the two camshaft ones.

The cam sprockets are about £200 each, the chain about £50, tensioner is around £100 or so (might be lucky and get this as a pattern part? I'd be inclined not to risk it though!). Guide rails plus the other sprockets/VAT etc = £1000+. Should say £1000+ a load of hassle to fit, the entire front timing cover has to come off - sump etc, the lot!

Not a cheap or easy job

 

[evo58]

Listen guys many thanks for the wave of replies and a good thread.
It appears that the 2.5 16v seemed to iron out some of the problems you mentioned.
I will give you some background to my interest.
In the late eigthies i became obsessed with the cosworth philosophy their cars etc.Always at times when i was to change my car things never really went my way ie too cautious,insurance costs and family commitments.
I collected books, was car mad ,again collected everything i could.
In the research came across cosworths involvement with MB.
I then bought a 190 e off my neighbour who owned a garage buisness and loved it .The build quality and a certain amount of prestige for a car built in 1988.
But it was never the cosworth version so again i never was to reach my ultimate aim.
5 years ago the gearbox played up and had it checked it needed a new box so i cut my losses and sold it back to my neighbour.
My next car was and still is a mondeo st 24,great car sweet as nut and never had any real problems.
I have recenetly seen a 2.5 16v at a local garage ,has been modified and probably has a wealthof hidden problems.This led me to surf the net and yep a car down in devon on autotrader looks a minter.
Hence i have joined your web,i dont know what i will do but would like to maybe speak to and have contact with like minded MB enthusiasts.
Bye the way there seems to be some controvesy as to whether cosworth has any involvement with the 2.5 16v or is the 2.3 the only true link.
Sorry for the thesis but i thought i needed to but some background in.
Cheers

 

[evo58]

Listen guys many thanks for the wave of replies and a good thread.
It appears that the 2.5 16v seemed to iron out some of the problems you mentioned.
I will give you some background to my interest.
In the late eigthies i became obsessed with the cosworth philosophy their cars etc.Always at times when i was to change my car things never really went my way ie too cautious,insurance costs and family commitments.
I collected books, was car mad ,again collected everything i could.
In the research came across cosworths involvement with MB.
I then bought a 190 e off my neighbour who owned a garage buisness and loved it .The build quality and a certain amount of prestige for a car built in 1988.
But it was never the cosworth version so again i never was to reach my ultimate aim.
5 years ago the gearbox played up and had it checked it needed a new box so i cut my losses and sold it back to my neighbour.
My next car was and still is a mondeo st 24,great car sweet as nut and never had any real problems.
I have recenetly seen a 2.5 16v at a local garage ,has been modified and probably has a wealthof hidden problems.This led me to surf the net and yep a car down in devon on autotrader looks a minter.
Hence i have joined your web,i dont know what i will do but would like to maybe speak to and have contact with like minded MB enthusiasts.
Bye the way there seems to be some controvesy as to whether cosworth has any involvement with the 2.5 16v or is the 2.3 the only true link.
Sorry for the thesis but i thought i needed to but some background in.
Cheers

 

[talbir]

One thing to account for is that the 2.3-16 has genuine Cosworth heads. The 2.5 heads are MB configurations.


talbir

 

[grober]

The origins of the Cosworth engines designed by Mike Hall were Mercedes plans to run Group B Rally cars based on the W201 which would develop 320 bhp. Altho the rally car project was cancelled the high power engine design would re-emerge in the DTM racing saloons. After the great prelaunch publicity of the 3 record breaking cars at the Nardo track in Italy full production of the 2.3-16v would not develop till about a year later due to what was described as "quality issues" with the cylinder heads. Cosworth had developed a special thin wall casting technique for the alloy heads so the heads were cast at their new Worcester factory, but all the auxiliary hardware was supplied by MB and machining and final assembly shared between the 2 companies. Further delays for the RHD market occurred when the tubular exhaust manifold had to be re-designed to clear the steering gear. The original 5,000 cars were built at Sindelfingen but in May 1984 production was transferred to Bremen. My guess-and its only that- is that Cosworth did the head casting and Mercedes took over most of the machining as model demand grew and Cosworth couldn't cope with the volume required. In answer to your question all the 16v engines 2.3,2.5 and EVO were based on the original Cosworth group B rally engine design with detail modifications to improve power/ reliability-probably from Mercedes. Whether Cosworth were involved in any way in the production of the 2.5-16v engine I don't know? Maybe Mercedes had worked out the cylinder head casting technique by that time? I would imagine the Mercedes engineering ethos of that time would spur them to control all aspects of engine production if at all possible. They still "farmed out" special limited production models to other companies like the 500E to Porsche's Zuffenhausen plant at that time so who knows??

Courtesy of James Taylors excellent collectors guide Mecedes Benz VOL 4 the 1980'S 190,200-320 and S class --alas, at present out of print I believe. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mercedes-Be...ooks&qid=1212397230&sr=1-5&tag=amazon0e9db-21

 

[Will]

One thing to account for is that the 2.3-16 has genuine Cosworth heads. The 2.5 heads are MB configurations.


talbir

They might be an improved design by MB, but Cosworth still manufactured the majority of 2.5-16 heads. I rebuilt a 2.5-16 last summer, it definately has the COSCAST branding on the casting at the front

Will

 

[grober]

They might be an improved design by MB, but Cosworth still manufactured the majority of 2.5-16 heads. I rebuilt a 2.5-16 last summer, it definately has the COSCAST branding on the casting at the front

Will

A definitive answer to end speculation Will thanks. A picture of that would have been nice but I guess when your in the midst of an engine rebuild that takings pics is the furthest thing from your mind.

 

[Will]

Hi Grober,

I can't view pics from this connection at present, but I believe there is a picture in this lot that shows what I am talking about

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=406803&postcount=12

Will

 

[evo58]

Just spotted a 1989 2.5 16v

Hi guys just spotted a 1989 2.5 16v blue black 2 owners,at classic cars Waley Bridge near Buxton on the net.
He wants £9,995 for it .He stated it has had headwork gasket etc and timing chain in the last 1500 miles done by MB at a cost of £2500.It looks mint.
If you look at his other stock i can believe him.
What would you guys think of this