Possible engine swap?

[Niks]

Im thinking about this for a possible future project but want to know if it can be done...

A C43 AMG engine in a W124 chassis...

1) Will it fit in the engine bay?

2) Will the C43 gearbox fit in the W124 chassis or will the W124 5-speed gearbox connect with the C43 engine?

3) Can the C43 ECU be transferred over to the W124 chassis or will I need a standalone ECU?

4) Will the existing drivetrain/rear diff handle the C43 engine power and torque?

Thanks

 

[Will]

I hate to say it - but buy an E500!

Will

 

[momomo]

Hi Niks,

Wouldn't the cost of sourcing a c43 engine, transmission and all the other bits necessary to make it work total to more than buying a nice c43 amg?

They are just so cheap at the moment and few nice examples around.

I also dont think the w124 gearbox will work as the c43 gearbox was not the same as other 722.6 boxes and only ever fitted to c43's.

Even these aren't up to the job as these gearboxes get eaten up all the time because they have to handle so much power, lots of c43s on their second boxes and refurbished/rebuilt boxes.

Same with the diff, i dont think the diff on your 124 will be able to handle the power from the 4.3 v8. You will also need new brakes that will be able to stop the car, new suspension, mounts etc etc.

I understand that you like the w124 chassis, so do i but IMHO this doesn't seem very feasible.

Maybe a E500 or W202 c43 or c36 if your looking for a bit more power?

 

[momomo]

I hate to say it - but buy an E500!

Will

Nice and simple Will, maybe thats what i should have posted. You just summed up my essay in 9 words!

 

[Niks]

lol...I just thought the C43 engine would be slightly more MPG friendly than the E500 M119. I have thought about the 3.6 but my hearts really set on a V8 sound/feel. Im bored of the 2.8l M104, its a beautiful smooth engine but im craving for more torque and power now.

My main issue is driving a left hand drive, I wont be comfortable with it at all. Plus I love the W124 chassis, not really a fan of the W202 chassis at all.

 

[momomo]

I totally get what your saying but unfortunately there aren't many other options. Maybe you could try the 3.6 for a while and move onto a V8 a bit later.

Just out of interest how much better is the 43 going to be over the E500 mpg wise? Not much surely.

I want a V8 as well!!!

 

[Will]

Yep - 4.3 or 5.0 V8, not going to make a lot of difference - both will be awful on fuel around town. Not that MPG matters much when such a conversion will cost thousands and thousands of ££££s. In parts, labour, insurance complications etc.

Look at how much work Porsche/MB had to do to the W124 to build the 500E/E500. You'll have to overcome many obstacles and engineering issues to make a reliable car that drives as it should and handles well.

To put it bluntly - you'll have to learn to live with a W202 (C43!), or LHD (E500) unless you've got massively deep pockets and patience.

Anything is possible with enough money/determination etc but being realistic, wouldn't there be loads of other cars out there which you'd rather for £10/20k+ or whatever?

Will

 

[Adam230K]

If you said 55 Engine into w124... then i'd be with you. but a 43 seems pointless.

 

[Roger Jones]

If you could find a decent W124 twin turbo, you'd get RHD, 25% better economy and marginally higher performance than a 500E, plus all the non-turbo parts are standard W124.

 

[Niks]

Would a twin turbo work on a 2.8L M104? AFAIK they were made for the 3.2L M104 by TT?

How reliable is a twin turbo setup though? If you had the choice between doing a TT conversion on a 2.8L M104 or swapping it for a 3.6L M104, what would you go for?

Can a E55 AMG engine be put in a W124 chassis and has it been done before?!

 

[d w124]

I don`t understand what you`re on about?!!Two days ago you you advised a member to get another car,now you`re asking the same thing!!I`ve told you to wait

 

[mattc]

Would a twin turbo work on a 2.8L M104? AFAIK they were made for the 3.2L M104 by TT?

How reliable is a twin turbo setup though? If you had the choice between doing a TT conversion on a 2.8L M104 or swapping it for a 3.6L M104, what would you go for?

Can a E55 AMG engine be put in a W124 chassis and has it been done before?!

yes a twin turbo would work on your 2.8 as the manifolds are the same for the 2.8/3.2 as I understand it. Other posters have mentioned the power/torque of the C43 engine being too much for the 124 gearbox but how did the original twin turbos manage on a standard box and diff when as Roger points out they had more bhp and torque than the 500e's??

Does anyone know for sure what the 124 gearboxes were rated to? I understand the 500e only used 4 speed box for a reason. Was it beefed up for those cars?

As to teh question about the E55 engine something tells me it would simply be too much for the 124. It might be technically possible with time and money but would it overwhelm the car??

 

[Will]

A 43/55 engine is pretty similar really. About 50bhp in it? (~300 vs. 350bhp?)

If a '55 is considered overwhelming or too powerful for a certain gearbox, you can pretty much say the same would apply to the '43. Not that I think you'd be using the standard gearbox from the 124 anyway with either.

If I really wanted to soup up a 2.8 M104 W124, I'd go for a 3.2 or 3.6 engine swap, possibly with turbos for the 3.2 if chosen.

Even those conversions will cost a fair amount of ££££, why build cars that you can buy already though? (E320 or E36 saloon, probably a few 124 with TT kits if you look around )

Will

 

[d w124]

Even those conversions will cost a fair amount of ££££, why build cars that you can buy already though? (E320 or E36 saloon, probably a few 124 with TT kits if you look around )

Will

Willon`t know if you`ve seen it,but his car is mint.
How much would the conversion cost?Should we say 2.5k
On the other hand how much is a mint low mileage TT or E36?

 

[mattc]

Will - i was thinking more of the torque from the 55 engine; its almost 400ft/lb IIRC as opposed to the 43 which is just over 300ft/lb. I agree about getting a 3.2/3.6 engine and adding the TT setup but if he could find one already in a colour/spec he likes then that would be cheapest. But he would also be buying a car with potential unknown issues whereas he probably knows what needs doing on his car (or not as the case may be!)

Perhaps Niks should define more to himself exactly what it is he wants and then set about achieving that aim. For instance I would love an E55 but only in estate variant as personally I think the 210 saloon is an ugly car.

 

[Will]

Fair points Matt - but with respect to Niks, there's loads of daydreaming threads out there where people try to convince themselves that it's worth spending thousands and thousands of ££££s tuning/swapping engines around on fairly normal cars with the end result not being particularly unique or worthwhile

I know we all have different preferences, but it just seems a bit far fetched to re-engineer a W124 saloon to fit a V8 - nearly 20 years after production - when you can already buy an E500/500E or W124 E36 saloon, or a RHD C43 W202.

The cost and complications of such a conversion needs to be drummed in (and discouraged IMHO ) as I think it'll cost an indecent amount of money to do properly - £10k/20k? - who knows?

I reckon the intricacies of torque output between the '43 and '55 engines are very low down that list at the moment - 302 vs. 380 vs 391 (depending on which '55 engine is used). That would be one of the most minor stumbling blocks in such a project, I don't think I'd even consider trying to use a standard 124 gearbox on either.

Just casually thinking, you'd be looking to replace the engine/gearbox/differential(propshafts/driveshafts?)/ECUs/looms(electronic key system?)/exhaust/suspension/brakes - not to mention any chassis modifications, reliability issues, insurance complications etc.

There's only a handful of people out there who would be talented enough and willing to undertake such a conversion (and with the financial frivolity if paying for the work).

I really don't think it's a good idea, that's all.

Will

 

[grober]

Im thinking about this for a possible future project but want to know if it can be done...

A C43 AMG engine in a W124 chassis...

1) Will it fit in the engine bay?

2) Will the C43 gearbox fit in the W124 chassis or will the W124 5-speed gearbox connect with the C43 engine?

3) Can the C43 ECU be transferred over to the W124 chassis or will I need a standalone ECU?

4) Will the existing drivetrain/rear diff handle the C43 engine power and torque?

Thanks

I have to agree with Will. there is an enormous amount of work involved in this to do it right-then you will need an engineering inspection to get insurance!#

e.g. what's required to emulate the factory spec

New engine crossmember.

New inner bulkhead sections

modified gearbox mounting

fabricated exhausts

complete engine bay rewire including the V8 ECU from the donor car

Uprated brakes calipers/discs all round

possible fabricated propshaft

V8 Differential and drive shafts [the V8s essentially had the SL back end]

All possible but the greatest headache would be marrying 2 generations of car wiring to work together or in tandem. e.g. How would you get the cruise control / ASR aspect of the C43 throttle control to marry with the existing ABS of the W124- probably only by disabling one of them etc etc etc etc

Here's how to do the physical bit with a 500 engine

Motorwerks Projects - V8 Conversion on a W124 Coupe

p.s. if you really want to do this buy a coupe with a sound body to do the conversion as it will be much more valuable afterwards

 

[momomo]

I totally agree with Will, again some very relevant and sensible points made.

Niks, you know you want that E500, you know it has to be done

 

[d w124]

Will:He is just like me.We both like a nice fast RHD w124s,and i know Hammer is the question but how much for one?Pringels car is nice and cheap,but was not for sale when i needed it
Nick:A tt convertion is not going to cost the earth so that`s the cheapest and easyest think to do

 

[Shude]

Sadly a competent shop could probably put an old chevy v8 in there in less than a day and it'd cost you under a grand. It wouldn't be much faster but it would certainly sound the part