Pre Wash Debate.... Do you pre wash your Pre wash? What Say You??

[LeeJV]

Ok guys, thanks for all the responses so far.. to try and keep on on topic a little my next test will be
Pre rinse 1 side of the car, then SF, allow to dwell then rinse.

On the other side I'll just got straight in with SF at the same dilution ratio to see how 2 methods compare.

I suspect that the side with SF directly applied will work better as it will allow the foam to cling on dry paint, whereas I suspect the side with a pre rinse wont work aswell for several reasons
1. The foam wont actually cling to the soiling
2 if we apply the SF to a wet panel it will also change the dilution ratio of the foam

personally I also feel that no matter what LSP you have, the result will be the same, infact even more so on Ceramic Coated car as SF will slide off faster due to its repellent nature, so rinsing before a SF will make the Faom even less effective.

 

[LeeJV]

Off topic a little, I've just seen how many views this thread has had so far!!!!, compared to how many actually commented.... Bonkers lol

 

[ChrisHGTV]

I like the sound of the Koche Chemie stuff but i pick the AG polar seal up when it drop to a tenner on Amazon, ashamedly i have a few bottles to work through first.


Sounds great and your right everyone is a bit different so it's great to read peoples different techniques to try out. There's a debate on a few forums at the moment about applying pre-washes to wet panels some arguing that the pre-wash whether it be citrus, SF, or APC needs to bite into and cling to the dirt on a dry panel rather than run off a wet one to get the best from the prewash.

Others argue that it is better to pressure wash of the majority so the pre-wash doesn't have to work as hard to penetrate the grime.

Personally with regards to the above i think a lot of the argument is dependent of the level of protection on the car. You have a good ceramic coating on there so the car will benefit from a pre-wash wash as the grime i don't suppose would cling as well as a car with lesser protection.

That's what i love about detailing, there isn't one rule or one way to do things which is why everyone has there own technique adjusted to what works best for them. It's difficult when you get a someone that says "No your doing it wrong" because i may not be it's just what works for them doesn't work for me or vice versa.

You could get two cars exactly the same and polishing will react differently from one to the next maybe microfibre cutting pad will work great one one but clog up on the other and need a couple of passes with a foam pad to clean the panel up before being able to use the MF pad and it's the same through each stage of a detail. Do you go in hard on dirty car with a strong ratio or lower the dilution to 2% like Lee has done because it's all that is needed and help extend the longevity of the LSP. Detailing to me feels like tunning in an analogue radio with a little tweek here and a little tweek there to get the that clear radio station.

Went a bit off topic a bit at the end there lol.

I used to pressure wash the car first just with water and then foam, but i've recently switched and foam a dry car (assuming the car isn't wet from rain). I have to say i've noticed the foam seems to work better on a dry car, and i'm assuming it is because less runs off like you say. I was always a bit disappointed how little foam would stay on until i switched techniques, but i also think i need a better lance.

I also tried foaming my Wife once when she inadvertently moved within range. This had no appreciable impact on the car, though it did unfortunately cause me to be locked out of the house for some time, so i would not recommend that particular technique.

 

[LeeJV]

I used to pressure wash the car first just with water and then foam, but i've recently switched and foam a dry car (assuming the car isn't wet from rain). I have to say i've noticed the foam seems to work better on a dry car, and i'm assuming it is because less runs off like you say. I was always a bit disappointed how little foam would stay on until i switched techniques, but i also think i need a better lance.

I also tried foaming my Wife once when she inadvertently moved within range. This had no appreciable impact on the car, though it did unfortunately cause me to be locked out of the house for some time, so i would not recommend that particular technique.

I'm now using the Detail Driven SF lance take a look here buddy

Snow Foam Lance

The DD snow foam lance is the perfect pairing with DD Snow foam. The wide mouth and extra wide base make for easy filling and the best part, it wont fall over! For years snow foam lances have been poorly designed with their tall design and long narrow necks they are notorious for falling over...

www.detaildrivenstore.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 126251]

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I personally don't, as I feel that pressure washing down first can actually do more damage and find it less effective that Using Snow foam first. ...............

Lee

............If a car's (dirty) paintwork can withstand water being blasted onto it at 250km/h (155mph) or greater while travelling on the road, I cannot believe that a pressure washer applied with common sense is going to cause dirt on the car to damage paint work.

 

[chic0821]

My cars never really get dirty, I'm a bit OCD & hate getting into a dirty car so there is never that much on them & in the real world they probably don't need the 2 snow foams regime I use, but I actually enjoy keeping them clean. I have even been spotted washing them in the rain (yep, sad isn't it). My garage is full of the "best" cleaning product, used a couple of times then changed for the next "best" product. However, I am happy doing it this way now, finishing with the Meguirs. . Would love to get using a DA polisher, but have no need to. Probably a good thing as I would have it out at every opportunity & be through to the bare metal
The Range Rover maybe gets as dirty as the white car in the previous post about once a year, well, maybe not.
Just a point, use Gummi Pfledge on your door seals, as it will stop the doors from icing closed in the winter, plus it keeps the seals supple

 

[AMV]

I rarely SF twice after using an APC. Only if the car is heavily soiled.

I use either ValetPro PH Neutral or Infinity Wax SF.

 

[LeeJV]

My cars never really get dirty, I'm a bit OCD & hate getting into a dirty car so there is never that much on them & in the real world they probably don't need the 2 snow foams regime I use, but I actually enjoy keeping them clean. I have even been spotted washing them in the rain (yep, sad isn't it). My garage is full of the "best" cleaning product, used a couple of times then changed for the next "best" product. However, I am happy doing it this way now, finishing with the Meguirs. . Would love to get using a DA polisher, but have no need to. Probably a good thing as I would have it out at every opportunity & be through to the bare metal
The Range Rover maybe gets as dirty as the white car in the previous post about once a year, well, maybe not.
Just a point, use Gummi Pfledge on your door seals, as it will stop the doors from icing closed in the winter, plus it keeps the seals supple

............If a car's (dirty) paintwork can withstand water being blasted onto it at 250km/h (155mph) or greater while travelling on the road, I cannot believe that a pressure washer applied with common sense is going to cause dirt on the car to damage paint work.

I doubt if can Rory. You can pic up stone chips from as little as 40mph so if you were doing 155mph with the front covered in grit, driving on a wet road with even more grit and driving hard rain then it would damage paint.

You can scratch paint with the lightest of pressure with a wash mitt, so surely if your paint was covered in road salt, grit and various other contaminants then blasted a pressure washer at 1600psi, IMO it would damage it.
It's just my opinion, I'm not saying I'm right and your wrong.

But the main point of the thread is to find out what would be the best and most efficient technique with Pre wash chemicals would be.

 

[LeeJV]

My cars never really get dirty, I'm a bit OCD & hate getting into a dirty car so there is never that much on them & in the real world they probably don't need the 2 snow foams regime I use, but I actually enjoy keeping them clean. I have even been spotted washing them in the rain (yep, sad isn't it). My garage is full of the "best" cleaning product, used a couple of times then changed for the next "best" product. However, I am happy doing it this way now, finishing with the Meguirs. . Would love to get using a DA polisher, but have no need to. Probably a good thing as I would have it out at every opportunity & be through to the bare metal
The Range Rover maybe gets as dirty as the white car in the previous post about once a year, well, maybe not.
Just a point, use Gummi Pfledge on your door seals, as it will stop the doors from icing closed in the winter, plus it keeps the seals supple

Hey buddy, I too hate a dirty car, and wash all 3 of my cars on a weekly basis when being used.
As for products, I think most of us are pretty much the same, wanting to try out the next best thing, although I've stopped now as I have £££££,s of various products that I'm determined to use before I buy any more. I've also thrown products away that I feel dont work as expected.

 

[LeeJV]

I rarely SF twice after using an APC. Only if the car is heavily soiled.

I use either ValetPro PH Neutral or Infinity Wax SF.

So do you APC first, then Foam or in reverse, and so you PW the car down before using any products?

 

[Deleted member 126251]

I doubt if can Rory. You can pic up stone chips from as little as 40mph so if you were doing 155mph with the front covered in grit, driving on a wet road with even more grit and driving hard rain then it would damage paint.

You can scratch paint with the lightest of pressure with a wash mitt, so surely if your paint was covered in road salt, grit and various other contaminants then blasted a pressure washer at 1600psi, IMO it would damage it.
It's just my opinion, I'm not saying I'm right and your wrong.

But the main point of the thread is to find out what would be the best and most efficient technique with Pre wash chemicals would be.

A stone chip is a totally different matter from dirt attached (and is only attached because it is so light)) to the car. The "stone" that caused the chip probably weighs 1000s of times more than the biggest bit of dirt on your car and is a more direct impact. No comparison.

1600 psi right at the very edge of the nozzle - the pressure falls off exponentially with distance from the nozzle & at about 3' is more like a mist than jet of water. I certainly don't bring the nozzle any closer than about 12".

Dirt between a mitt and the paint is a different matter to dirt being washed away by water. I'd be interested to see empirical evidence of a pressure washer (properly used) causing surface dirt to scratch paintwork. As soon as the water hits it is going to wash the dirt away, not drag it over the surface like a mitt would.

If your theory is correct, we'd see loads of cars with their lower halves badly marred by dirt wouldn't we? I've never really looked at other cars but in my 40+ years of owning and washing cars I've never noticed that sort of problem on any vehicle I've owned.

 

[chic0821]

When I say that I power wash first, I use a nozzle which gives a fan spray, not one you would use to clean your block paving. Also it is about 2-3 ft from the bodywork and at an angle as I only want to wet the car, not power the dirt off, then its snow foam to allow the dirt to drop off, power wash it clear, second snow foam in conjunction with wash mitt & final power wash. Then dry after spraying with "last touch detail"

 

[LeeJV]

A stone chip is a totally different matter from dirt attached (and is only attached because it is so light)) to the car. The "stone" that caused the chip probably weighs 1000s of times more than the biggest bit of dirt on your car and is a more direct impact. No comparison.

1600 psi right at the very edge of the nozzle - the pressure falls off exponentially with distance from the nozzle & at about 3' is more like a mist than jet of water. I certainly don't bring the nozzle any closer than about 12".

Dirt between a mitt and the paint is a different matter to dirt being washed away by water. I'd be interested to see empirical evidence of a pressure washer (properly used) causing surface dirt to scratch paintwork. As soon as the water hits it is going to wash the dirt away, not drag it over the surface like a mitt would.

If your theory is correct, we'd see loads of cars with their lower halves badly marred by dirt wouldn't we? I've never really looked at other cars but in my 40+ years of owning and washing cars I've never noticed that sort of problem on any vehicle I've owned.

Ok Rory, I see your point, but I have to say in the dozens of cars that I have detailed and done paint correction to, that there is a significantly more paint damage to lower sections of the car and bumpers than anywhere else.

If you find using PW to rinse down prior to using a SF more effective that's fine, its your car, that's the point of this thread.

 

[chrisk2010]

A stone chip is a totally different matter from dirt attached (and is only attached because it is so light)) to the car. The "stone" that caused the chip probably weighs 1000s of times more than the biggest bit of dirt on your car and is a more direct impact. No comparison.

1600 psi right at the very edge of the nozzle - the pressure falls off exponentially with distance from the nozzle & at about 3' is more like a mist than jet of water. I certainly don't bring the nozzle any closer than about 12".

Dirt between a mitt and the paint is a different matter to dirt being washed away by water. I'd be interested to see empirical evidence of a pressure washer (properly used) causing surface dirt to scratch paintwork. As soon as the water hits it is going to wash the dirt away, not drag it over the surface like a mitt would.

If your theory is correct, we'd see loads of cars with their lower halves badly marred by dirt wouldn't we? I've never really looked at other cars but in my 40+ years of owning and washing cars I've never noticed that sort of problem on any vehicle I've owned.

There was a you tube video address this though i have just looked for 10 minutes and can't find it.

They basically took a painted panel polished it, corrected it and inspected it under a microscope then magnetically attached it to a car to drove around in the elements over a period of time until a sufficient amount of grime had built up then conducted the test whether using a prewash (SF in this case) would be beneficial against just pressure washing off the grime.

Of course the snow foamed side came up cleaner as snow foam has more cleaning properties than pressurised water but it got more interesting when they inspected the panel again under the microscope.

The side that didn't have snow foam applied did have slightly more "micro marring" as opposed to the side without but the interesting bit was the direction of some of the marring. The pressure washed side the marring spread out in random directions and though the SF side did have similar marring it was far lessened in this test and more directional assuming this is from being attached the the vehicle and driven.

NOW the disclaimer! Keep in mind this is microscopic marring not very visible to the naked eye, maybe over time 5,10, 15 + plus years the paint would look visible duller totally depending on how the car is looked after and stored i suppose, and although the test results did interpret that directly pressure washing dirt of an untreated painted panel the car would cause more marring than pre-treating the surface prior to washing it won't immediately be visible the the naked eye.

I hope i have explained everything correctly and in a way that makes sense as it was a few years ago now since i have seen the video but it was one of the reasons i started looking into SF when i caught the detailing bug.

 

[AMV]

So do you APC first, then Foam or in reverse, and so you PW the car down before using any products?

APC first allow to dwell then PW then move on to SF then PW, then 2BM although i may try 8BM soon.

I would use a different APC ratio dependant on the product already applied to the car as to not strip any previous protection

 

[chic0821]

I do not dispute anything you say about the tests, but snow foam on its own does not in my opinion clean a car sufficiently well. The minute you bring a wash mitt into the equation, as most people do, then the whole dynamic is changed & if anything you will get more microscopic marring. Everyone thinks their way is correct & it probably is, however its good to have a debate about it & we may change certain things after listening to others. Keep scrubbing oops wrong word & keep adding your method.

 

[LeeJV]

I do not dispute anything you say about the tests, but snow foam on its own does not in my opinion clean a car sufficiently well. The minute you bring a wash mitt into the equation, as most people do, then the whole dynamic is changed & if anything you will get more microscopic marring. Everyone thinks their way is correct & it probably is, however its good to have a debate about it & we may change certain things after listening to others. Keep scrubbing oops wrong word & keep adding your method.

Again, there are so many variables to detailing, That's why I started the thread. We had a massive debate about if SF works about a year ago, I did some similar testing then, yet still had many unconvinced with my results.

Products and dilution ratios make a huge difference between them all.

As for wash Mitts.. I think I've done one on that too PMSL.

Its great to here different opinions and user experiences

 

[Will]

Regardless of all the other methods mentioned here, I usually rinse a car off with regular open hose type flow before anything else.

Water is a brilliant solvent, will pick up any loose dirt and larger gritty particles and safely runs off with no pressure before you start the rest of the process. And even without chemicals it softens some dirt - dead flies, organic stuff, mud etc.

Don’t really see the snowfoam thing not sticking - it’s mixed into and suspended in water anyway - some of the posters say they foam more than once so isn’t that the same sort of thing anyway?

Finally regards the whole not damaging the paint thing - surely the more you wash the more you risk inflicting damage - however minute. Obviously you don’t want to leave your car dirty forever but if it’s washed 50+ times a year it’s going to pick up a few more swirls than one that’s not washed as often.

Well that’s my excuse at the moment, one of mine hasn’t been washed since August I think!

 

[LeeJV]

Regardless of all the other methods mentioned here, I usually rinse a car off with regular open hose type flow before anything else.

Water is a brilliant solvent, will pick up any loose dirt and larger gritty particles and safely runs off with no pressure before you start the rest of the process. And even without chemicals it softens some dirt - dead flies, organic stuff, mud etc.

Don’t really see the snowfoam thing not sticking - it’s mixed into and suspended in water anyway - some of the posters say they foam more than once so isn’t that the same sort of thing anyway?

Finally regards the whole not damaging the paint thing - surely the more you wash the more you risk inflicting damage - however minute. Obviously you don’t want to leave your car dirty forever but if it’s washed 50+ times a year it’s going to pick up a few more swirls than one that’s not washed as often.

Well that’s my excuse at the moment, one of mine hasn’t been washed since August I think!

BOOM!!! We have another method.

You are infact correct, water is essentially a solvent, and rinsing the panel down first with an open ended hose would actually gently remove and loose dirt by flooding it, also encourage water sheeting, so could still leave the panel dry enabling the prewash to bond to it.

The remaining bonded contaminants would have absorbed water, meaning they are now less porous so might not absorb the chemical to remove it so may need a stronger solution.

Will add that to the list and try out this week at some point.

Thanks for the input

 

[Will]

BOOM!!! We have another method.

You are infact correct, water is essentially a solvent, and rinsing the panel down first with an open ended hose would actually gently remove and loose dirt by flooding it, also encourage water sheeting, so could still leave the panel dry enabling the prewash to bond to it.

The remaining bonded contaminants would have absorbed water, meaning they are now less porous so might not absorb the chemical to remove it so may need a stronger solution.

Will add that to the list and try out this week at some point.

Thanks for the input

No worries

Not sure how much difference a wet panel would make in terms of the effectiveness of your snow foam or other cleaners - the amount of water in terms of percentages would be tiny by comparison to your dilution ratio and the amount of foam applied? I guess going by that theory you could increase the ratio a fraction to account for that. The other way of looking at it is that your snowfoam or other chemicals will get better contact with the ‘bonded’ dirt if you rinse off as much of the easy loose stuff first

In terms of the contaminants having absorbed water - of course, if they absorb water from they’ll also absorb your chemicals that are suspended in the pre wash or foam, by diffusion.