Problems after wheel alignment

[219]

If these cars have alignment arrows , it should be easy to confirm the wheel is correctly positioned on the column .

On my cars , I have always scribed an alignment mark of my own before removing a wheel - moreover , usually if the steering lock is on in the centre position , the wheel comes off , and goes back on , level .

Some older cars don't have self canceling indicators to worry about either - on 1950's Mercs you turn the horn ring in the direction you want to indicate , and must remember to centre it again afterwards !

 

[wheels-inmotion]

I know sometimes you fix one problem on a car and something else starts giving a problem, which isn't anyones fault, so i do understand. I've modfiied many cars over the years and have seen various scenarios over the years.

My concern was that although when i first came in i had the inner tyre wear issue, all off which was still within the MB specs. After the alignment was redone with new bolts installed the steering wheel position is off centre. All the figures are still within spec though. So the steering wheel issue has resulted after the bolts and alignment was done, unless something else could have gone wrong in the short space of time the car was worked on.

Trust me the thought of moving the steering wheel postion crossed my mind on numerous occasions but with the potential sensor issues......

The manufactures specs are a "suggestion", if they were law you wouldn't have had inner tyre wear. The patten of wear was typical camber so we fitted MB camber adjuster bolts.

Changing the camber moves the position of the cars weight at the tyre and the perpendicular position of the lower swivel ( ball joint ) nevertheless the changes are symmetrical and should not change the longitudinal axis, meaning the steering position should remain straight.

Fact is in your case it hasn't, and in truth i don't know why. The car has been back on the rig three times and there's nothing geometric to correct, you say the angle censor has been tested and found to be ok, so we can dismiss that from the equation.

Looking outside of the box takes an illogical approach and with us that costs nothing more than your time, will we find the reason? I think so, can i guarantee we will find it.... No.

In the event no reason is found I would "back track" on the initial data and remove the adjuster bolts.

 

[BlackC55]

If everything is within tolerance , the car drives fine , does not pull left or right and does not wear tyres - the only thing bothering you is the wheel being off centre when going straight ahead ..........

WHY NOT JUST TAKE THE STEERING WHEEL OFF AND MOVE IT ROUND A SPLINE OR TWO ??

The steering wheel may even have been removed in the past and put back on off centre ?

This can't be done on modern MB's with a steering and sensor and a contact spiral. It will just snap it at full lock.

 

[kamalpatel12448]

Wow - amazing issues about this!

Sorry to hear about your troubles and shocked WIM hasn't got to the bottom of this. In my opinion it might be difficult to find someone to find the issue faster unless they know about it and have already fixed it multiple times. As mentioned on another thread I ended up sending the dealer the invoice from WIM after the dealer had the a go 4 times. I think Tony does want to fix this and I'd go back to him if it were my car.

BTW - My old C is in for a bumper repair :-( and I have a new E on loan, it drives very straight FYI (5k on the clock).

Hope you get to the bottom of this soon and get some satisfaction - would drive me nuts too.

 

[kth286]

So far I have done my own alignment over the past 9 years, using basic aids.

With trial and error I have learnt a lot about the subject.

Over the course of some 55/60,000 miles with this car, I can say that

* the tyres are wearing as they should

* the car travels straight when the steering wheel is let go on level surface

* no pull to left in normal driving and

* steering wheel straight.

Now when I have had the fault of an offset steering wheel all I have needed to do is to 'equalise' the toe rods by adjusting right tie rod and left tie rod in the appropriate directions to bring the steering wheel back to the correct position BUT at the same time ensuring that the basic alignment remains at the correct setting.

Can that not be done in this case ????

 

[219]

This can't be done on modern MB's with a steering and sensor and a contact spiral. It will just snap it at full lock.

Please pardon my ignorance for asking this , but I would like to understand -

presumably this sensor is fitted somewhere behind the steering wheel - otherwise the position of the wheel on the column could not affect it ? If the sensor were on the steering box/rack (depending on model) then the mounting of the wheel could not make any difference .

Since the steering wheel on most road cars goes for something like three full turns from lock to lock ( I know it varies from model to model ) - how can there be an 'end stop' position beyond which something will break ? Can you explain exactly how this works , please ?

I do fully understand and agree that it is best to find the underlying problem rather than 'cover up the symptom' , although I have done this myself on older cars after alignment work has thrown the wheel off centre .

 

[BlackC55]

The contact spiral is like a coiled clock spring and when you wind it too much it breaks. Winding it too much coils the spring up and snaps it. The action of turning the wheel "winds" the spring up and if it goes too far because the steering wheel has been removed and put back in the wrong place...."snap".

The steering angle sensor also has a part to play too. The SAS is needed for the ESP system as it needs to know speed and angle of steering lock to calculate if it needs to activate. If the steering wheel is not at the centre and set at zero degrees the ESP system "thinks" that some steering lock is always applied.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[raymont]

Now when I have had the fault of an offset steering wheel all I have needed to do is to 'equalise' the toe rods by adjusting right tie rod and left tie rod in the appropriate directions to bring the steering wheel back to the correct position BUT at the same time ensuring that the basic alignment remains at the correct setting.

Can that not be done in this case ????

Basically same point, many years ago when cars were simpler and I used to do my own maintenance I remember centering the steering wheel, getting someone to hold it or fixing it in some way and then making adjustments.

Is this no longer applicable?

 

[Dieselman]

Basically same point, many years ago when cars were simpler and I used to do my own maintenance I remember centering the steering wheel, getting someone to hold it or fixing it in some way and then making adjustments.

Is this no longer applicable?

The alignment centre will have used a steering wheel brace to hold the wheel in position while adjustments are made.

This sounds like the post that Evdok made is the culprit.
The car pulls to the left so the wheel has to be biassed to the right to compensate and make the car drive straight. It makes driving a real chore and the steering feels lifeless around dead ahead.

This could be either unequal front tyre drag due to castor or different camber each side causing the tyres to be unequal with regard to the contact area inside or outside the centreline, or it could be rear setup causing rear axle thrust.

 

[Dieselman]

If these cars have alignment arrows , it should be easy to confirm the wheel is correctly positioned on the column .

Where the column enters the rack at the rotary valve there will be a pointed marker and alignment line.

Moving the wheel isn't the answer.

 

[wheels-inmotion]

So far I have done my own alignment over the past 9 years, using basic aids.

With trial and error I have learnt a lot about the subject.

Over the course of some 55/60,000 miles with this car, I can say that

* the tyres are wearing as they should

* the car travels straight when the steering wheel is let go on level surface

* no pull to left in normal driving and

* steering wheel straight.

Now when I have had the fault of an offset steering wheel all I have needed to do is to 'equalise' the toe rods by adjusting right tie rod and left tie rod in the appropriate directions to bring the steering wheel back to the correct position BUT at the same time ensuring that the basic alignment remains at the correct setting.

Can that not be done in this case ????

Yes it could but it's only masking the real reason for the SW position.

 

[timskemp]

This could be either unequal front tyre drag due to castor or different camber each side causing the tyres to be unequal with regard to the contact area inside or outside the centreline, or it could be rear setup causing rear axle thrust.

I've missed you!

 

[kth286]

Yes it could but it's only masking the real reason for the SW position.

I do not understand that.

The wheel has moved out of position as a result of the adjustments that have been made - perfectly reasonable.

It is now just a case of finishing the job and re-align the steering wheel by adjusting each side track rod in the appropriate directions, without upsetting anything else.

Doing this action alone should not affect anything else one jot.

It maybe you guys have come to rely on the machine to tell you what to do and forgotten to use your common sense.

(It happens with electronic diagnostics a lot so don't be too embarrased).

 

[jonnyboy]

I do not understand that.

The wheel has moved out of position as a result of the adjustments that have been made - perfectly reasonable.

It is now just a case of finishing the job and re-align the steering wheel by adjusting each side track rod in the appropriate directions, without upsetting anything else.

Doing this action alone should not affect anything else one jot.

It maybe you guys have come to rely on the machine to tell you what to do and forgotten to use your common sense.

(It happens with electronic diagnostics a lot so don't be too embarrased).

I think that bearing in mind we have several time-served experts who regularly help the amateurs on our forum we need to be careful posting comments worded like this. I appreciate there is a bit of a mystery on this particular case but we armchair experts with two lengths of string, a tape measure and an adjustable wrench maybe shouldn't be teaching our grandmother to suck eggs.......that's the way to lose these experts who give their time up for us.

 

[Will]

I agree - no matter what the problem, the tone of that comment seems a little too condescending for my liking.

The forum wouldn't be a very nice place if we were all that miserable to each other...

Will

 

[kth286]

I'm sure Tony will give his reaction - which is what I am after.

So far we have not learnt anything towards a successful conclusion to the problem - I just want to learn.

 

[Burger]

I do not understand that.

The wheel has moved out of position as a result of the adjustments that have been made - perfectly reasonable.

It is now just a case of finishing the job and re-align the steering wheel by adjusting each side track rod in the appropriate directions, without upsetting anything else.

Doing this action alone should not affect anything else one jot.

Agreement or not on tone to one side... I completely agree with your question and would like to understand it further too.

It seems logical to me that if everything is in alignment that the ONLY thing adjusting the track control rods can do is change the position of the steering wheel. If left and right are adjusted exactly the same amount then the wheel straight ahead position will be moved (rotated) but surely absolutely nothing else will have changed on the vehicle alignment?

I really would like to understand why this is wrong?

Thanks,

 

[raymont]

I am certainly no expert, but could it not be that, e.g., something is wrong at the rear causing the car to want to steer to one side or the other resulting in the need to steer to counter this? If this is so then adjusting the track so that the wheel is straight ahead would only hide the problem and not resolve it.

 

[Burger]

I am certainly no expert, but could it not be that, e.g., something is wrong at the rear causing the car to want to steer to one side or the other resulting in the need to steer to counter this? If this is so then adjusting the track so that the wheel is straight ahead would only hide the problem and not resolve it.

I agree, except that I believe in this thread WIM have stated the car is correctly aligned. If something were so seriously out at the back end then I'm sure their machines would have picked that up already.

Regards,

 

[wheels-inmotion]

I do not understand that.

The wheel has moved out of position as a result of the adjustments that have been made - perfectly reasonable.

It is now just a case of finishing the job and re-align the steering wheel by adjusting each side track rod in the appropriate directions, without upsetting anything else.

Doing this action alone should not affect anything else one jot.

It maybe you guys have come to rely on the machine to tell you what to do and forgotten to use your common sense.

(It happens with electronic diagnostics a lot so don't be too embarrased).

I'm would be happy to be found to be wrong, i will even hold my hand high up in public knickers down and say so but this will not solve your complaint.

I could also pants on for paragraphs quoting geometric examples but this also will not solve your problem.

I keep trying to say to you the solution is outside of the chassis, a comment regarding fuel i will pay for and inspecting the external chassis for a solution would be free..... Other than that i'm done.