Really Really Stupid People

[219]

I seem to remember having to demonstrate hand signals as part of my driving test - would have been early 80's. Do I remember correctly?

I sat my driving test circa 1975 and was told the requirement for hand signals ceased about a week later .

 

[219]

This makes sense; I’ve often wondered about it - and even more so with brake lights. I feel for the car behind sometimes at night when my huge full-width tailgate-top brake light is stuck on at junctions. People behind have their faces illuminated bright red in my mirror. But it’s not easy to cancel it with a column shifter and pedal-operated parking brake...

Try it somewhere it won't matter if the car creeps - on all my cars where the hand/parking brake is correctly adjusted , it will hold the car in drive , even slightly downhill . If a particularly long wait , such as at some roadworks , I may pop the car into neutral or park .

What is it with the ( presumably new type ? ) column shifter ?

I've had plenty of column change manual MBs , and have driven a column change W123 - they are just the same as floor change .

 

[219]

W201's had a conventional handbrake but there was a down side in terms of it's effectiveness. Because of the very small parking brake shoes inside the rear disc hubs it needed quite a strong pull to hold the car against the creep of an auto box. That is probably the logic behind a foot operated parking, at least where inadequately sized brake shoes have been used.

The big upside to a conventional hand brake for manual transmission cars was ease of hill starts. Until hill start assist came along the foot operated handbrake was a 3 act farce with a manual transmission at least until you acquired the skill and timing to make it work.

Yes , manual with a FOPB was a faff - I had that in the W124 E250D manual , but with an auto it has never been a problem , other than the 'soft shoe shuffle' to apply it - where you have to take foot off accelerator onto brake pedal , at same time foot off brake onto parking brake pedal , to apply .

 

[unimog]

If you are carrying out the manoeuvre uninterrupted then yes , but if you have to stop and wait for a sequence of traffic lights to pass , then out of consideration to people behind after dark , you should cancel them , or remove your foot from the brake , until you are ready to move off again . It is not a problem in daylight , perhaps even in built up areas with bright street lighting , but it can be a very real problem in unlit places .

Remember , even in the novice driving test , it is a requirement to apply parking brake and select neutral when stopped at lights , not to do so is recorded as a fault .

I would totally agree about securing the vehicle when at a stop, I taught my daughter to drive and after 3 years it still annoys me she does not use the hand brake when stopped, nobody in the city does this. I do see the brake light dazzle issue, if you follow the code and secure the vehicle at a stop its a none issue.

I'm still not convinced about cancelling the indicator.... In the current claim culture world even if its not your fault and you were stopped in the centre of the road waiting to turn right but not signalling and someone hit you for example, then I could guarantee the insurance or claimant would use your lack of signal to even up or even remove the blame.

I would agree turning off the indicator might be the gentlemanly thing to do, however too many un-gentlemanly folk will use it against you.

 

[SW18]

What is it with the ( presumably new type ? ) column shifter ?

Makes it tricky to put the car back into drive and release the parking brake - need 2 right arms to be able to do it in time to drive off! But I’m giving thought to using the parking brake to hold the car still whilst in Drive, which makes sense. Although... don’t modern Mercs disengage drive when the brake is held on? Releasing the brake and using the parking brake might therefore cause more wear on the ‘box?

 

[zipdip]

Well I admit I keep my foot on the brake while waiting at a traffic light,but if it is a road up with say a three way lights or a traffic jam thats not moving I put the car into park and put the hand brake on I never just put the prawl in the box

 

[Dippo]

If there is no one present on the approach , no need to signal at that point ; if someone appears on the scene , you signal BEFORE moving off - perfectly considerate .

All I can tell you is this is taught by IAM , RoSPA , Police , Fire , Ambulance , Army and no doubt many others .

I've always found it hard to accept all of the guidance given in Roadcraft when it tells you things such as this.

Police drivers, however much they may argue, are not perfect. They may not have seen someone on their approach, but that is not a 100% guarantee that there is no one there. Why write that it is not necessary to signal, when a signal takes so little effort and may help prevent misunderstandings?

 

[baxlin]

Open cars don;t need windows

You’re correct. My JZR doesn’t even have doors. Nor side windows. Nor roof. Nor a fourth road wheel.....

 

[Deleted member 113659]

You’re correct. My JZR doesn’t even have doors. Nor side windows. Nor roof. Nor a fourth road wheel.....

Cool car that. And you look very young in that photo too.

 

[219]

Makes it tricky to put the car back into drive and release the parking brake - need 2 right arms to be able to do it in time to drive off! But I’m giving thought to using the parking brake to hold the car still whilst in Drive, which makes sense. Although... don’t modern Mercs disengage drive when the brake is held on? Releasing the brake and using the parking brake might therefore cause more wear on the ‘box?

I don’t really see that as any different to manual column change which , LHD or RHD , is always to the centre of the car , as is the umbrella handbrake which normally accompanies it : it was always just a matter of selecting gear first , then releasing the handbrake . It mostly isn’t difficult to anticipate the changing of the lights , but even if not just takes a couple of seconds .

I have no idea what newer Mercs do , it is just the brake lights after dark I object to ; I myself will hold the car on the foot brake during daylight , as long as for not too long .

 

[219]

I would totally agree about securing the vehicle when at a stop, I taught my daughter to drive and after 3 years it still annoys me she does not use the hand brake when stopped, nobody in the city does this. I do see the brake light dazzle issue, if you follow the code and secure the vehicle at a stop its a none issue.

I'm still not convinced about cancelling the indicator.... In the current claim culture world even if its not your fault and you were stopped in the centre of the road waiting to turn right but not signalling and someone hit you for example, then I could guarantee the insurance or claimant would use your lack of signal to even up or even remove the blame.

I would agree turning off the indicator might be the gentlemanly thing to do, however too many un-gentlemanly folk will use it against you.

The argument would not hold any credence because it is incumbent on a driver to be aware of his surroundings, and cancelling a trafficator at standstill is the correct thing to do , besides not all vehicles have mechanical or electric signals , so one cannot depend on that .

 

[219]

Well I admit I keep my foot on the brake while waiting at a traffic light,but if it is a road up with say a three way lights or a traffic jam thats not moving I put the car into park and put the hand brake on I never just put the prawl in the box

I do too , in daylight .

I will just use park if in a traffic jam and traffic behind already stopped , but I agree it gives little defence against being shunted forward if struck at any speed .

 

[219]

I've always found it hard to accept all of the guidance given in Roadcraft when it tells you things such as this.

Police drivers, however much they may argue, are not perfect. They may not have seen someone on their approach, but that is not a 100% guarantee that there is no one there. Why write that it is not necessary to signal, when a signal takes so little effort and may help prevent misunderstandings?

Much of Roadcraft is indeed written for emergency response drivers .

The training re signalling or not is designed to heighten observation and develop the thinking process, bringing a higher level of concentration and less ‘autopilot’ .

By all means signal every time if you want , but much of the time it is possible to be quite certain there is no one else around .

 

[zipdip]

Well I know driving instructors were told of the "new rules" of only indicating when somebody is there,but that is a poor rule,and as it has been in force for at leat 10 years we have loads of drivers now who hardly indicate at all,we have all seen them as you are about to overtake on the motorway you are maybe three car lengths behind them and out they come no indication,this also happens when the said driver is overtaking him/her self they do not alert the car in front who might well have decided to come out,and the thing is if there is a serious accident the police canvass witnesses who are bound to say that car did not indicate,so I know I seem to be in the minority,but at 3 am on a slip down to a deserted motorway I still indicate as I speed up to join no traffic that I can see.

 

[Merc220cls]

I’m very light sensitive so wear shades most of the time. I agree it’s very annoying with glaring lights in front when your at a junction. Constant light ( brake lights ) don’t bother me so much as indicators so if I find myself behind a car in this situation I just dip my sun visor.

 

[Scooby_Doo]

Makes it tricky to put the car back into drive and release the parking brake - need 2 right arms to be able to do it in time to drive off! But I’m giving thought to using the parking brake to hold the car still whilst in Drive, which makes sense. Although... don’t modern Mercs disengage drive when the brake is held on? Releasing the brake and using the parking brake might therefore cause more wear on the ‘box?

Why do you need to manually release the parking brake ? My first column shift Merc was 2013 E coupe and had two more since then and they've all automatically released the handbrake when you press the accelerator.

 

[Teego]

Well I know driving instructors were told of the "new rules" of only indicating when somebody is there,but that is a poor rule,and as it has been in force for at leat 10 years we have loads of drivers now who hardly indicate at all,we have all seen them as you are about to overtake on the motorway you are maybe three car lengths behind them and out they come no indication,this also happens when the said driver is overtaking him/her self they do not alert the car in front who might well have decided to come out,and the thing is if there is a serious accident the police canvass witnesses who are bound to say that car did not indicate,so I know I seem to be in the minority,but at 3 am on a slip down to a deserted motorway I still indicate as I speed up to join no traffic that I can see.

Exactly so. You need to display your body language because you can't trust anybody else who may or may not be there.

 

[baxlin]

Cool car that. And you look very young in that photo too.

I’ve had the car a while.......

 

[219]

Well I know driving instructors were told of the "new rules" of only indicating when somebody is there,but that is a poor rule,and as it has been in force for at leat 10 years we have loads of drivers now who hardly indicate at all,we have all seen them as you are about to overtake on the motorway you are maybe three car lengths behind them and out they come no indication,this also happens when the said driver is overtaking him/her self they do not alert the car in front who might well have decided to come out,and the thing is if there is a serious accident the police canvass witnesses who are bound to say that car did not indicate,so I know I seem to be in the minority,but at 3 am on a slip down to a deserted motorway I still indicate as I speed up to join no traffic that I can see.

OK , let's deal with this .

The guidance of looking and deciding whether or not a signal is necessary has existed since around 1930 , when advanced driving was first developed .

On the motorway :

there are only two possible scenarios . You wish to change lane ( whether for an overtake or for any other reason ) - FIRST , you MUST take rear observation .

If your intended lane change will in any way interfere with the progress of any other driver , whether to require them to change speed or course , then that lane change is NOT ON , you MUST wait until they have passed and then consider the move again ; no matter that you may be baulked by a slower vehicle ahead in front of you ; that is not the faster vehicle's problem , it is yours , and if you need to slow down and wait - so be it .

If your intended lane change will not in any way affect any other driver - THERE IS NO NEED TO SIGNAL YOUR INTENTION ; it is completely pointless .

Hence , I struggle to find any scenario where I would give a signal to change lanes on any multi lane road ; I ALWAYS wait until my move won't impede anyone else . It is that simple .

Distance - 3 car lengths or whatever - is irrelevant : closing speed and time is what counts : I could have someone who has kept station 3 car lengths behind me for the last 5 miles ; if I need to move out , I will do so in a gradual but definitive manner , not taking anyone by surprise and no signal required ; however , if they are bearing down on me with a significant speed difference , I will NOT pull out until they have passed , unless I determine I can be past the vehicle in front and be back in my lane before they catch up .

On a slip road , no matter the time of day : if you are coming down a slip road , it only leads one place - WHERE ELSE CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE GOING ? , there is absolutely no need to trafficate right to join a motorway ( or DC ) : it is patently obvious where you are going , and if you signal in that circumstance you will be marked down on an advanced test . It is incumbent on drivers joining to adjust their speed to avoid conflict with vehicles already on the carriageway ; also for drivers seeing traffic joining ahead to not put themselves into conflict .

When people are on foot , they naturally avoid such conflicts , usually out of politeness , it should be no different in a tin box .

 

[219]

Why do you need to manually release the parking brake ? My first column shift Merc was 2013 E coupe and had two more since then and they've all automatically released the handbrake when you press the accelerator.

My first column shift mere was my 1957 W105 219 - no such links . Column shift continued until at least W124 - no such interaction .