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Possibly, but that wasn't the OP's point, I think... his original post was about goods and services fully paid for, but not received.
Service rip off
- Thread starter Rambo21
- Start date
Possibly, but that wasn't the OP's point, I think... his original post was about goods and services fully paid for, but not received.
Petrol Pete
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
I can't help thinking that big car makers would much prefer NEVER to see the car again after it was sold , gone , money in pocket no need for expensive garages staffed with qualified (expensive) humans , no moany customers coming back day after day end of story .
If they could all agree on it , it would happen . Just like the supermarkets are crying out for the death of the deli counters they shot themselves in the foot with years ago. If they could all agree they would be gone as well.
If they could all agree on it , it would happen . Just like the supermarkets are crying out for the death of the deli counters they shot themselves in the foot with years ago. If they could all agree they would be gone as well.
With a petrol engine new oil should be very obviously cleaner leaving no doubt whatsoever that it's been changed.
Diesel is not so straight forward as it can go black very quickly. The reason is that the residual oil left in the engine after draining or extraction contains fine soot particles which are an extremely efficient dye. If you able to inspect the new oil before the engine was run the difference would be just as obvious as it is with a petrol engine but once the engine has been run even for a relatively short time the oil will darken and it may take an experienced eye to tell if it's old oil or new.
Diesel is not so straight forward as it can go black very quickly. The reason is that the residual oil left in the engine after draining or extraction contains fine soot particles which are an extremely efficient dye. If you able to inspect the new oil before the engine was run the difference would be just as obvious as it is with a petrol engine but once the engine has been run even for a relatively short time the oil will darken and it may take an experienced eye to tell if it's old oil or new.
Tuercas viejas
MB Enthusiast
Guys
A statement . Dealerships are only as good as the people that work within them.
If you have questions about the trust issue and quality of work there are simple remedies .
The most basic is a simple paint stick followed by an anti tamper marker paint stick.
Write the date and mileage on the filter cap or any of the cartridges. with a paint stick
Place a line of the anti tamper solution as a small line bead across drain /fill plug(s) oil cartridge cap .
If anyone puts a wrench or socket on it, the bead disintegrates.
If you want to go further , you can spray a repair area prior to repair presentation with an anti tamper paint which is invisible but can be seen with a black light..
A cheap alternative is A/C leak detector dye , paint it on various areas.
One thing to bear in mind before you go off half cocked on oil color.
Modern cars have no oil dipstick, and the use of belly pans & sump guards make traditional oil drains a time consuming activity, if you try to do it in the old fashioned way
Most techs use a syphon pump to pull oil from the engine pan.
(Landrover/Range Rover A/J series engine servicing is all done this way .)
In consequence it very difficult to remove all the oil as you would with a traditional plug out & drain activity.
So the fresh oil charge is heavily diluted with "old" remaining oil dwelling in the pan.
As one of my Mexican techs Armando often tells me
Snr El Jefe, hay soluciones!
Tuercas viejas
I/We use this:-
and this
,
A statement . Dealerships are only as good as the people that work within them.
If you have questions about the trust issue and quality of work there are simple remedies .
The most basic is a simple paint stick followed by an anti tamper marker paint stick.
Write the date and mileage on the filter cap or any of the cartridges. with a paint stick
Place a line of the anti tamper solution as a small line bead across drain /fill plug(s) oil cartridge cap .
If anyone puts a wrench or socket on it, the bead disintegrates.
If you want to go further , you can spray a repair area prior to repair presentation with an anti tamper paint which is invisible but can be seen with a black light..
A cheap alternative is A/C leak detector dye , paint it on various areas.
One thing to bear in mind before you go off half cocked on oil color.
Modern cars have no oil dipstick, and the use of belly pans & sump guards make traditional oil drains a time consuming activity, if you try to do it in the old fashioned way
Most techs use a syphon pump to pull oil from the engine pan.
(Landrover/Range Rover A/J series engine servicing is all done this way .)
In consequence it very difficult to remove all the oil as you would with a traditional plug out & drain activity.
So the fresh oil charge is heavily diluted with "old" remaining oil dwelling in the pan.
As one of my Mexican techs Armando often tells me
Snr El Jefe, hay soluciones!
Tuercas viejas
I/We use this:-
and this
,
Last edited:
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These are my thoughts on the subject...:
1. The OP checked the oil after the service and found it to be black. He therefore concluded that the oil hasn't been changed. He then went on to further conclude that nothing was actually done, which I assume includes the filters change and various checks etc (other than washing the car). My view is that while the jury is still out on how black should fresh engine oil get in a Diesel engine immediately after a service, there is no particular reason to assume that any of the other items have also not been carried-out. So we have two possible scenarios here: one scenario is that everything was done as it should and that the oil became black because this is what happens to fresh oil in a Diesel engine, the other scenario is that nothing at all was done to the car. From reading the posts so far, I don't think there's conclusive proof of either the two scenarios, or anything in-between. In short, there's no proof that the service was done, and there is no proof that it wasn't done.
2. Even assuming that the service was indeed not carried-out at all, we should keep in mind that this relates to a particular occasion at a particular dealership. So I think that it would be unfair to tar all MB dealers with the same brush.
3. I agree with the OP regarding the unreasonably-high cost of some of individual services at dealers. Things start to look better when the services are covered by an MB Service Care Plan, but even then, getting good value depends on how the owner plays the system - as we all know, getting a Service A with no additional items done under a Service Care Plan is very poor value - it does not get much worse than that... so owners need to know how to navigate the system in order to get maximum value out of dealer services.
4. I believe that the main reason that dealer servicing is expensive (whether PAYG or under a Plan), is because MB know that owners perceive FMDSH as adding value to their cars come sell-time. So it's in part a financial transaction. However, this is only valid for the more expensive or newer cars. On a basic model or an older car there will be little difference in market value between a car with specialist FSH and main dealer FSH. But, again, it's down to owners to be savvi about it. There's nothing stopping owners from getting their cars serviced - from day one - at a specialist with access to the MB Digital Service Book (DSB). In fact, car manufactures have to facilitate this by law (see Block Exemption) - they are not allowed to corner the market, and they can't refuse a warranty claim simply because the car hasn't been serviced by a franchised dealer. So I would say that, at least to some extent, owners' complaints about the high cost of dealer servicing are unjustified - there are cheaper alternatives.
5. To my mind, the issue of service intervals is a separate matter. There are two parts to it. Firstly, certainly cars are the odd ones out, with the service intervals being specified in miles/time. The majority of other mechanical devices - airplanes, boats, stationary engines etc - have their service intervals specified in hours of operation, not distance covered. Indeed, the conditions under which a city taxi operates are very different to those of an airport shuttle or a regional sales rep's car. So service intervals are bound to be, to some extent, arbitrary. Some large fleet operators do not adhere to them anyway - they will send a sample of the engine oil (and other fluids) to be analysed in a lab and replace it on condition, etc. The second issue is the reason for servicing the car in the first place - I would argue that in many cases, there isn't one... in theory, you could buy a new car, never service it, then sell it after 3 years. Whatever damage or wear caused, will become evident several owners further down the ownership line. So why do we service cars? In part, to retain the resale value, and in part because that's 'the right thing to do' - even if, in fact, we are working for the benefit of unknown future owners.
1. The OP checked the oil after the service and found it to be black. He therefore concluded that the oil hasn't been changed. He then went on to further conclude that nothing was actually done, which I assume includes the filters change and various checks etc (other than washing the car). My view is that while the jury is still out on how black should fresh engine oil get in a Diesel engine immediately after a service, there is no particular reason to assume that any of the other items have also not been carried-out. So we have two possible scenarios here: one scenario is that everything was done as it should and that the oil became black because this is what happens to fresh oil in a Diesel engine, the other scenario is that nothing at all was done to the car. From reading the posts so far, I don't think there's conclusive proof of either the two scenarios, or anything in-between. In short, there's no proof that the service was done, and there is no proof that it wasn't done.
2. Even assuming that the service was indeed not carried-out at all, we should keep in mind that this relates to a particular occasion at a particular dealership. So I think that it would be unfair to tar all MB dealers with the same brush.
3. I agree with the OP regarding the unreasonably-high cost of some of individual services at dealers. Things start to look better when the services are covered by an MB Service Care Plan, but even then, getting good value depends on how the owner plays the system - as we all know, getting a Service A with no additional items done under a Service Care Plan is very poor value - it does not get much worse than that... so owners need to know how to navigate the system in order to get maximum value out of dealer services.
4. I believe that the main reason that dealer servicing is expensive (whether PAYG or under a Plan), is because MB know that owners perceive FMDSH as adding value to their cars come sell-time. So it's in part a financial transaction. However, this is only valid for the more expensive or newer cars. On a basic model or an older car there will be little difference in market value between a car with specialist FSH and main dealer FSH. But, again, it's down to owners to be savvi about it. There's nothing stopping owners from getting their cars serviced - from day one - at a specialist with access to the MB Digital Service Book (DSB). In fact, car manufactures have to facilitate this by law (see Block Exemption) - they are not allowed to corner the market, and they can't refuse a warranty claim simply because the car hasn't been serviced by a franchised dealer. So I would say that, at least to some extent, owners' complaints about the high cost of dealer servicing are unjustified - there are cheaper alternatives.
5. To my mind, the issue of service intervals is a separate matter. There are two parts to it. Firstly, certainly cars are the odd ones out, with the service intervals being specified in miles/time. The majority of other mechanical devices - airplanes, boats, stationary engines etc - have their service intervals specified in hours of operation, not distance covered. Indeed, the conditions under which a city taxi operates are very different to those of an airport shuttle or a regional sales rep's car. So service intervals are bound to be, to some extent, arbitrary. Some large fleet operators do not adhere to them anyway - they will send a sample of the engine oil (and other fluids) to be analysed in a lab and replace it on condition, etc. The second issue is the reason for servicing the car in the first place - I would argue that in many cases, there isn't one... in theory, you could buy a new car, never service it, then sell it after 3 years. Whatever damage or wear caused, will become evident several owners further down the ownership line. So why do we service cars? In part, to retain the resale value, and in part because that's 'the right thing to do' - even if, in fact, we are working for the benefit of unknown future owners.
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I diversified, slightly
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I paid less than that for Oil (10L), oil filter, pollen filter, 10x spark plugs and brake fluid change. Yes, it was at a dealership
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Check your bank statements:
If you've made a total of 24 payments of £39 each, then you have purchased two services.
If you've made a total of 36 payments of £39 each, then you have purchased three services.
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What year is the car?
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Due to MB's odd way of costing their services, some services can become very expensive.
If by a stroke of (bad) luck you car gets to a year when it requires Service B, Brake Fluid Change, Cabin Filter Change Air Filter Change, Fuel Filter Change, and ATF and Filter Change - all at the same time - then this will hurt. Badly.
Do you know what other elements were due in addition to the Service B? The Brake Fluid Change and the Cabin Filter Change are given (because they are due every two years), the other elements may or many not be due this year.
So unless you marked the cap there is no way to tell for certain unless you have an analysis done, but that’s way too expensive.
I’m going to do it myself now
I’m not fussed about the service history
I’m glad now I didn’t extend the warranty as it’s rarely used
as I said I had my own car repair business
It’s easily accessible
Just can’t believe the prices they charge
Supposed I’ve been spoilt first time in 40 years I’ve had to pay for any work
No wonder I didn’t make any money I was too cheap!
It was just air filter and fuel filter
I’m going to do it myself now
I’m not fussed about the service history
I’m glad now I didn’t extend the warranty as it’s rarely used
as I said I had my own car repair business
It’s easily accessible
Just can’t believe the prices they charge
Supposed I’ve been spoilt first time in 40 years I’ve had to pay for any work
No wonder I didn’t make any money I was too cheap!
2017 23000 on the clock
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So the dealer asked you £850 for Service B, Cabin Filter Change, Brake Fluid Change, Air Filter Change, and Fuel Filter Change? A 2017 car will have its 4th service this year, and it is an expensive one. When is the ATF due on your car - at 5 years (i.e. next year)?
As said, the thing about the MB Service Care Plan, is that you really need to learn how to use it in order to derive value from it. The services to get covered are Year 4 and Year 5 - the two big ones. At £39x12 per service, you would have paid £468 for the service now due (instead of the £850 quoted). That said, unless you frequent motoring forums on the Internet, there's no way for the average owner to work this out themselves.
If you have the knowledge, tools, and physical space, and additionally you are not bothered about FMDSH, then by all means do it yourself and save some money. Unfortunately, not everyone is in your situation, on both counts.
geoffus
MB Enthusiast
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Excellent reply, I agree with all of this. That's why I service my own car now as its now 6 years old and would cost me more in services than I would get back if I sold it with a full MB history.
Fastcar155
MB Enthusiast
Hi , be very interesting to find out if dealers are always using genuine manufactures parts when servicing your car ?
I changed my own oil drained out 6.5ltrs put 6 back in. Checked dipstick and was taken aback how dirty the oil looked. Hadn't even started the engine! It's the soot in all the oilways in engine. My oil is changed every 12mths or 8k.
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Yes. They are not permitted to do anything else (with the exception of very few items, such as engine oil).
Maybe as an x-mechanic I have trust issues but my opinion is trust know one and you won't be disappointed, I worked for a one off independent and if a customer wanted to supply their own parts then I would fit them, it made no difference to me, but there were lots of others that would not be so honourable or honest.
It may run in the family, as my brother did so many miles that service/oil changes were needed every 3 months, he brought it to me with the parts knowing I would not rip off anyone, let alone family.
Still to this day I do almost everything including building work, because a few times I have trusted a company to do something, like a resin driveway while I was golfing in France and now the merc is sinking into it and wish I had done the job myself.
It may run in the family, as my brother did so many miles that service/oil changes were needed every 3 months, he brought it to me with the parts knowing I would not rip off anyone, let alone family.
Still to this day I do almost everything including building work, because a few times I have trusted a company to do something, like a resin driveway while I was golfing in France and now the merc is sinking into it and wish I had done the job myself.
Tuercas viejas
MB Enthusiast
Tuercas viejas
MB Enthusiast
Rambo21
Your post has piqued my interest..
You apparently owned your own shop, how long were you in business?
Did you own the real estate or just the building or rent?
How many people did you employ?
It surprises me you haven't kept up with charge out rates nationally .
I am constantly looking at overheads and costs to do business running an Independent shop & make a profit.
Generally an Independent charge out rate is about 25% less than dealer tariffs in the USA .
Mechanic compensation in the UK from what I see is dismal.
The UK car consumer is getting a real deal on R/O charge out rates in the UK.
How do skilled tech's take home such dismal Wages /Salaries?
You can earn for the average UK mechanic salary levels in the US, by unskilled working positions at Mcdonalds for 15 bucks or 12 quid an hour and full benes !
My shop entry level tech compensation by comparison is $35 /hour and most of my guys get $55/hour .with benes like a free company Landrover.
My top gun tech earners get a free week at the company vacation apartment on Tybee Island .
To beat the dealer, and capture their traditional business, I strive to be better than them, with the best top guns in the business.
As a transplanted Brit I was asked a long time ago by a banker ;-
"What is the most important aspect of running a business, I see you have an MBA from a US college .
Instantly replied "Cash Flow without it, you have no business'.
Second "If you don't answer the bloody phone by the fourth ring you are not in business".
In short , I needed 25 years ago, a business mortgage to buy an 8 bay shop for $750,000 @ 5,5 % interest over 15 years.
I paid it back in 12 .
I knew by these two simple answers I got the bank loan approval with 30% down as cash earnest money.
I am surprised to read you state that you made no money!
How on earth did that happen?
As a 72 years old I still run my own family business from the front .
The auto business is just too exciting & being surrounded by young enthusiastic Americans and Mexicans I simply can't put it down.
Tuerca Viejas
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