Shuddering at 70+ MPH - STAR says TC slipping ? - 2001 E230 CDI S210

[datripsta]

S210 - E320 CDI 2001 facelift (registered 2002 if it makes any difference !)


My car has been suffering from shuddering issue for a while now.

I've changed many parts which all have had a big affect on symptoms. Originally I had vibration during breaking, at low speeds as well as 70 + MPH. Also lots of clonking. I've managed to clear all traces of this expect the 70+ MPH which I now really want to see off.

Remaining Symptom:

When on motorway and cruising with almost no throttle they car starts to shake/shudder. Its felt in the steering wheel and the seat. Its very defined and starts very weak then comes on stronger unit around 85-90 when it tails off again but still slightly noticeable to me through the steering wheel. As soon as I give any more throttle or come completely off the throttle it stops, however...... there are times when it gets worse for a split second then goes completely and this tends to be with a soft rise if throttle rather than mid to a punch of throttle. In the later case the shudder stops and sees like its instantly. I've been in Germany recently, once over 100 MPH + it seems to stop - I'm sure the issue is still there just as it is a lower speeds and I guess resonance just inst coming through. I can feel just a touch through the steering wheel. I guess this could be the fault or the road its self. My motorway MPG isn't as good either I am about 8-10 mpg off what I was getting and this is over a good 6 months or so if monitoring.

The gears change as smooth as anyone could wish, much better than other W210/S210s I've been in. No issues with shifting at all, no bad idle etc...

Yesterday and Indie hooked my car up to STAR which showed 2 recording faults, electric adjustment on driers seat and slipping torque converter. the seat is my head rest that plays up but the Indie guy said the TC is whats causing the shuddering. Not other faults found, Injectors check out as within tolerance and so on. He said he is no auto-box technician but has seen this before...I'll likely need the TC replaced and best to have box rebuilt. Unfortunately I got excited by the quote to repair some damaged to my front bumper and never got the codes off the guy.... I can cal and get these if they are important to solving this one.

Can anyone give me any advise on what to do. I'm actually not in the UK right now I've just driven to Hungary from the UK hence the annoyance of the shuddering at cruise speeds. Labor costs here are much cheaper than the UK, second hand parts are too. So If its a replacement job best I get it done here.

I've read up on many sites over the past 24 hrs. Although the TC is reading out as slipping I've read many posts which have the same issues, all be it a lower speeds, but these have all been fixed by replacing autobox solenoids or PCBs not the TC. Some just did a fluid and filter changed with a good flush.

I've been out this afternoon and tried something which was suggested on a another brand of car, to see if the issue occurs with ESP on and if shifting to 4th stop it. Neither of these stop the shudder how ever I will say at closer to 70 MPH when going into 4th its much less, at say around 78 mph there isn't much difference in the shudder between 4th and drive.

Is replacing the TC the answer or is this a know fault cured by something less involved such as a solenoid or cleaned PCB plug connections.

Things I've changed since I bought he car with the shaking issue

Wheels checked and on hairline crack repaired/straightened and checked again
Engine Mounts
Trans Mount
Front shocks
Front a read springs after right front snapped on me due to bad roads in Budapest !!!!
Front & Rear Spring cups
Rear accumulators ( plus full purge of SLS fluid, SLS valve seals renewed, cleaned and adjusted SLS valve to axle arm. Purged Hydraulic shocks, no leaks or weeps )
Rear shock top bushes
Sub Mount buses
Front lower Control arms
Lower front ball joints
Front track rods and ends
Front Drop Links
Anti Roll Bar bushes
Brake Discs all round
Brake Pads all round
Both Drive shaft doughnuts
one of the plastic fuel lines due to hairline crack letting air into fuel system
2 of the rear suspension links but I can't remember which ones as I had someone do this job....
All wheel bearings changed ( before hunter test )
MAF sensor
Serviced every 5k miles - all filters and oil ( Mobil 1)
Deep cleaned EGR and intake as per DIY article ( removed from car etc.. not just a can of Wynns EGR clearer in it)
1 Injector after run off tested showed one to be a mile out ( STAR shows all working good but only had idle test )

Car has been on latest hunter system in the UK in August, rear within tolerances all round, front as good as new once ball joints, control arms and tie rods & Ends were renewed

Given what has been changed on the car I have little reason to doubt its the trans given what STAR was showing. I've never gotten into the depths of auto boxes so I'm at the merci or gods without good advice.

As I'm sure you can understand I'm keen to ensure I don't have the trans rebuilt when it was something mush less causing the issue.

Many thanks in advance for reading my long post and helping me out.

EDIT**

Just wanted to say I've searched high and low on the net and can not find any Merc with the same issue. Sprinters seems to have something similar but is all at very low speeds not 70+ and they state bad shifting too which I don't have.

Also the guy who did the STAR diagnostics said if I can live with the shudder the trans will probably still last a good 5 more years which confuses me a little as I'd imagine a TC breaking up would not that long.

 

[bob6600]

Wow thats some parts list!

One thing I would have changed is the ATF as it has probably never been done

 

[datripsta]

Hi bob6600,

agree with you 100% but has ended up being one thing I just never got round to doing. I always wanted to take the car to Olly but always seem to be off on another trip to eastern Europe.

If I can get the fluid and filter here I'll try and give it a go at the weekend however I'll still need to get something to give me the fluid temp when checking the levels. Are the cheaper end of the lazer thermometers up to the job.

 

[datripsta]

Just been out and looked at the color of the trans fluid filler cap. Its black with a red pin but there is evidence of someone taking a screwdriver to it.

 

[guydewdney]

tyres worn? my 202 had one size differnt front to rear tyres and it was fine up to 60mph then cruise failed. no traction control fitted though.

 

[logman]

Gearbox

Hi check if you have VALEO radiator if so do search doubt if fluid change will help MANY t/c has been changed when early contamination of fluid not shown but as you are showing t/c slip low or contamination fluid could be the answer have fluid tested before t/c being replaced hope this helps

 

[datripsta]

Hi guydewdney - thanks for the reply - tyres are good. I've had 2 sets ( originals and new set ) on since this has been happening also winter wheels now on too with 90% left on tyers.

Hi logman - I'll try to identify tomorrow, a mate here has a dip stick I can use so I'll check levels too and report back. sounds more and more like its terminal.

If there is contamination would it be just the TC I need replaced or would other components be going bad too. remanned TCs don't seems to cost too much but I guess its down to the cost of the trans specialist.

 

[datripsta]

given all the other vibrations I had on the car I don't know hoe long this issue has been going on for. It could well be before I got the car which was 2 yrs ago. what I can say is if it was there its not got worse over time. I know very little about auto trans but if it has been contaminated would one expect the issue to worsen over time.

 

[bob6600]

Hi check if you have VALEO radiator if so do search doubt if fluid change will help MANY t/c has been changed when early contamination of fluid not shown but as you are showing t/c slip low or contamination fluid could be the answer have fluid tested before t/c being replaced hope this helps

I could be wrong, but is the Valeo an issue on W211's?

 

[Auto-mobile]

I could be wrong, but is the Valeo an issue on W211's?

Yes, will not effect your car.

 

[E55BOF]

First things first. CHECK THE GEARBOX FLUID LEVEL. If it's not correct, top it up.

If it's OK, CHANGE THE FLIPPIN' ATF (use MB's own or a good generic of the right grade) and filter. Do it NOW. It's cheap to do - or have done - and if that doesn't fix it, it will enable you to exclude it as the cause of your problem. Take a good look at the fluid that drains out; it should be clear, and red. If it's black, or VERY brown, or opaque, it was (maybe LONG LONG) overdue for a change. If there's bits of debris in it, or signs of coolant contamination (unlikely; you don't have the Valeo radiator issue), say "Oh S**t" and look for another transmission....

If you can't manage the torque converter drain procedure when replacing the ATF, (read Olly's write-up first, though; if any of the oil pan retaining bolts are seized, you will have to deal with that) you can bodge ( not botch) it as follows: drain the fluid, drop the oil pan, replace the filter and oil pan gasket, refit the oil pan, refill. If you do that three times (obviously, only drop the pan and replace the filter the first time...), you will have about 90% of fresh fluid in there. (Sharp intake of breath from some of the purists on here, but trust me, it works; it's the only way to do the SAAB 'box - there's no drain plug).

If the gearbox filler tube cap still has the red clip in it, either the clip was replaced, or the cap may well not have been removed. If there are screwdriver marks on it, possibly somebody tried to change the fluid, couldn't get the filler cap off, so didn't bother?

If you still have the problem, you're back to the STAR diagnostic test results. If the STAR test says the torque converter is slipping (presumably the lock-up function; if it did not slip at all it wouldn't be a torque converter...), the next step, I'm afraid, would seem to be to replace either the torque converter, or whatever controls the lock-up mechanism.

E55BOF

 

[BlackC55]

I would get it on a ramp and run it to when the vibration happens and have a look underneath to try and locate it. It could be a dodgy tyre or prop shaft bearing etc.

Change the ATF too. I doubt a torque converter issue.

 

[ringway]

One of the front tyres on my 210 was scrubbed on the inner when I bought it and the whole car shook on the motorway.
Also one of the front wheels was buckled. A fresh set of wheels and new tyres cured the problem.

Also, the car wouldn't start off in drive when it had run for around 60 miles one hot day and I really did fear the worst.
Had the ATF and filter changed (they hadn't been done for some time) and the box runs perfectly now.
I went to an auto-box specialist with the problem and was quoted £1700 for a full reconditioning of the gearbox, but my bodyshop suggested the ATF/Filter change before splashing out. Result!

 

[stability]

if you get it on a star machine you can lock up the clutch to eliminate it.

 

[E55BOF]

I take it you mean lock OUT the clutch? If you lock up the clutch, surely you then have a solid drive, not a torque converter? (Please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't know exactly how the lock-up clutch works - never had one before).

 

[datripsta]

Thanks for all the resonances. I had to go on a last min trip out of the country and not had any time to check back until now.

Today I went back to the Mercedes independent to get it on STAR again. this time a different guy hooked up the car to STAR. As soon as he got it connected he said "no transmission errors at all - its not your gearbox" The only error that's left is the drivers seat head rest.

Long story short - fluid level checked - fine but defo needs replacement - as we all thought its the original fluid ! filter, seal and fluid ordered from dealer today, in next week.

The head mechanic came out in the car to experience the symptoms - with a set of known good wheels. Same happens guy says defo not transmission. Get back to the shop - 2 hrs on the ramp and they are stumped however I do need one of the upper front ball joints replaced but it not bad enough to cause any symptoms just do it now before its gone. Ill get both arms replaced just to be sure. They will check the break calipers too.

They think its likely the prop-shaft isn't balanced or maybe the innards of the diff. they cant see any bushes worn etc.... possible the alignment is out however head mechanic rules this out as cause as I had the car on hunter system and check good. I might be out but was still a problem when known to be good.

Car is going back next week when they can take the prop off and put a known good one on and see if that's it.

now I have no answer for the low MPG except the EGR is still not as good as it should be although STAR is not picking up an errors. Its not a smoker but I do see more smoke then after I cleaned the EGR and intake. Is it possible the EGR is playing up when cruising and causing engine shudder which is the source of the shudder in the car ?

I will say the resetting of the trans adaptations is great - I didn't notice much difference around town but when putting my foot down and at faster speeds its much better than before. Seems to be different when breaking too, the car feels like its easier to stop.

I will ask they come out in the car and lock up the TC with STAR to see if that solves it.

I don't mind pumping a few quid into this car but like all of us I don't want to waste money on things that wont slave anything. Annoyed I was sent of what maybe a wild goose chase with the TC but I'm not sure I can rule that out or not given the fluid quality. I guess when I do the drain what comes out will tell a story ..........

Any further advise is hugely appreciated.

If I can get this sorted I've got a nice ride.

Thanks again to all you are a great help as always.

 

[markjay]

Being an old-timer... I had similar symptoms on an Alfa Romeo many years ago, and it was due to failure of a rubber coupling on the propshaft. So propshaft issue indeed not unlikely.

With regards the EGR valve, in the olden days you could just take it off and mask the hole with a plate cut from sheet metal, and a gasket, then drive the car around and see how it behaved... this usually helped to establish if the EGR was indeed the culprit. Not sure if this is possible with modern ECUs though.

 

[datripsta]

Thanks markjay

Since I did the EGR and intake clean I've planned to kill off the EGR but here in Hungary it reaches -15 during the winter so I want to keep the EGR to help the aux heater get the coolant up to temp. I've been fiddling around with the mod that's listed in the how to section but adding a switch to turn the mod on and off at 60 degrees with a coolant temp sensor. I've not tried this on the car at all as right now I ant get the right switch to keep the resistance as the car would expect wen the mod is off. I've got an electronics geek friend in the UK who is going to help me improve this over xmas.

Indeed you cant just block the EGR off on the W210 as it will throw errors and go into limp mode.

 

[Dieselman]

The ECU doesn't need to see the EGR solenoid connected, it just looks for voltage drop at the MAF when the EGR should be operating.

 

[datripsta]

thanks Dieselman - I'll start a new thread on this topic so this tread is clean and about the shuddering