• The Forums are now open to new registrations, adverts are also being de-tuned.

starter motor keeps burning out

180 miles!!! :crazy:


IMHO if you are needing to top up the coolant between services you have a problem that needs fixing.:mad:

I only needed to add about quarter of a litre and put this down to maybe an airlock in the system as the coolant had been changed during the service a couple of months back and no overheating issues or mayo on the oil cap or oil in the coolant bottle as i did check these as a precaution when i first added coolant.
 
Last edited:
I always start the car in park when its running lol.
Europa have pressurised the coolant system and are leaving it over the weekend to see if it loses pressure and pushes water into any of the cylinders.
I asked about the water if it is getting water locked and how has it been cleared on previous occasions as we were all unaware of the possible hydro locking scenario. The tech guy explained that when the starter attempts to start it pushes the cylinder in it's cycle and if water is there it more than likely drains past the cylinder rings with the pressure the starter exerts before burning out.
Guess its going to be a long bank holiday wait for me.

I only ask this wondering if maybe your gearbox is getting stuck rather than the engine as it only seems to happen after the car is parked overnight and maybe its getting stuck somewhere between park and drive. Perhaps starting in neutral.may be different. If what the man thinks is true then why does more water not leak in after the first bit drains past ? Anybody know how much water you need for it to lock ? Is it lots or a tiny bit ?
Then if its locks when you try to start it, you'd turn it off straight away. The pressure will cause the water to drain past the rings fairly quickly then it should start (assuming the start cycle was stopped quick enough and the starter is ok ) Am i right ?
 
Anybody know how much water you need for it to lock ? Is it lots or a tiny bit ?

Any water getting into the combustion chamber will hike the compression ratio, but the volume will be about 2700 cc / 5 cyl / 18 comp ratio ~ 30cc will give you a 100% full chamber so any more and its solid. About equivalent to an egg cup full!
 
Last edited:
^ What would be more amazing is water entering a cylinder due to a failed head gasket on a diesel engine. The high compression blows water out of the system.

A failing head or gasket will start by letting combustion gasses into the head and as it deteriorates further coolant will start seeping into the cylinder post shutdown as the residual engine heat will push the coolant perhaps 20° to 50° over shut down temp as it heat soaks and cools. This heat will drive coolant pressure well above normal running, and is how the nominal 1-2 bar coolant pressure could get into a high compression cylinder @ 18+bar. Now if the compromised cylinder is in a power or exhaust stroke when shut down the errant coolant will be exhausted and you will be no wiser, but if its on an intake or compression stroke and there is more than a combustion chamber volume of coolant it will lock up and it seems the starter will maintain the current until, key off, the start cycle times out (30 sec I think), the coolant lock seeps past the rings and back to the coolant system and the engine starts, or it self destructs. Though for his scenario to be true the engine could only have cranked for one revolution maximum and then it stopped cranking abruptly whilst the current continued to toast the starter.

This is starting to sound like a cracked or porous cylinder or cylinder head!:crazy:
 
Will water really leak past the rings? I find that surprising. I'd have thought that there was enough seal via the rings to prevent that

Or do the rings seal better when the engine is running & there is some cylinder pressure?

Nick Froome
the independent Mercedes Estate specialists
 
I chose my verb carefully, remember rings are a split metal to metal reciprocating dynamic seal arrangement running at high linear speed with alternating loading and at elevated temperatures, additionally they are gaped to allow for expansion, so they may seep rather than leak when cold and under pressure. Some rings are even slightly dished to promote sealing under pressure, not sure with MB rings though. Also the pressure is easily over 20bar depending on when the phantom coolant lock occurs.
 
Last edited:
A failing head or gasket will start by letting combustion gasses into the head and as it deteriorates further coolant will start seeping into the cylinder post shutdown as the residual engine heat will push the coolant perhaps 20° to 50° over shut down temp as it heat soaks and cools. This heat will drive coolant pressure well above normal running, and is how the nominal 1-2 bar coolant pressure could get into a high compression cylinder @ 18+bar. Now if the compromised cylinder is in a power or exhaust stroke when shut down the errant coolant will be exhausted and you will be no wiser, but if its on an intake or compression stroke and there is more than a combustion chamber volume of coolant it will lock up and it seems the starter will maintain the current until, key off, the start cycle times out (30 sec I think), the coolant lock seeps past the rings and back to the coolant system and the engine starts, or it self destructs. Though for his scenario to be true the engine could only have cranked for one revolution maximum and then it stopped cranking abruptly whilst the current continued to toast the starter.

This is starting to sound like a cracked or porous cylinder or cylinder head!:crazy:


I'm looking at a worst case scenario of a cracked head myself, if i decide to fix it up then i will need to source a head first and then just do a head and gasket change.
Your posts have been informative, Thanks.

Billy
 
Did they find anything with the injs out ? Are Europa a chain garage or what ? Ha ha i dont think they'd appreciate the comments on here as if they are a diy shop.
 
Will water really leak past the rings? I find that surprising. I'd have thought that there was enough seal via the rings to prevent that

Or do the rings seal better when the engine is running & there is some cylinder pressure?

Nick Froome
the independent Mercedes Estate specialists

No, when not under pressure. Oil will seep past rings, but not water because of its surface tension.
 
update

Went in to Europa today and was told that the cold pressure test didn't reveal any leaks so they are going to run the car to temprature and then see tommorrow if it leaked overnight. Something to do with it may only leak at temprature as the starter motor always burn't out after it had been parked up overnight.
Will update when i know more.

Billy.
 
Did they find anything with the injs out ? Are Europa a chain garage or what ? Ha ha i dont think they'd appreciate the comments on here as if they are a diy shop.

They are faffing about doing pressure test on it at the moment and when they see it has leaked then they are taking injectors out. It's taking time as they are doing it in their free time otherwise i would be needing to get a bank loan which is good of them.
 
A block test would take a few minutes and be conclusive for a combustion chamber leak.
 
Update

Went to Europa today and was told they believe it is leaking water into one of the cylinders causing the car to hydrolock and say it looks like a head gasket job.
They say they had the glowplugs out but couldn't see any water.
They have replaced the starter and said my bill is £144 for the diagnostic work carried out.
I'm going to get the head taken off at another garage who i know are very good and get the gasket changed and the head checked over. Going to find out tommorrow what it will cost.


Billy
 
...there is a lot of conjecture here but no direct evidence it is the HG, and some kind of hydraulic lock. The next time it cranks but doesn’t start, remove the key immediately, remove the heater plugs ASAP they should tell a story, and then crank, if I’m correct as in #16 there will be a jet of water from one of the cylinders. Then spend the money to fix the known problem. If it is dry, no need to open a good engine!

It could still be one of the transmission clutches or the torque converter braking up or other, get a ATF fluid sample analysed first. It’ll be way cheaper than attempting to fix a good engine.
 
Last edited:
If he tries to crank and it locks then how long would it take to force the water past the rings ? When the water clears then it should start right ? Assuming of course its water locked ,and that this is why it doesn't lock as soon as the new starter is in. Why did europa not just do as Mercsys suggests above ? If it wont crank, they remove the plugs, if it cranks freely then almost certainly its water. Or else still do the block test.... Are they giving up? Or you on them ? Nice not to be charged too much but pretty useless result. If ur starter goes again will they replace it again after someone else takes over ?
 
If hard cranking/lock up is the case, the starter pinion/Bendix design may keep the starter physically engaged and powered even once the key is removed, this will require a battery disconnect to remedy or the starter will destroy itself! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Your problems, inconvenience and expense aside, I am quite enjoying this puzzle!
The problem seems to be intermittent, is the vehicle is daily use? Long runs? Short? Starter burns after, a long/short run, hot start attempt or cold? After a long period shutdown days? Is normal starting completely normal, not slow, longer than you expect, laboured… any other clues?
 
Last edited:
...there is a lot of conjecture here but no direct evidence it is the HG, and some kind of hydraulic lock. The next time it cranks but doesn’t start, remove the key immediately, remove the heater plugs ASAP they should tell a story, and then crank, if I’m correct as in #16 there will be a jet of water from one of the cylinders. Then spend the money to fix the known problem. If it is dry, no need to open a good engine!

It could still be one of the transmission clutches or the torque converter braking up or other, get a ATF fluid sample analysed first. It’ll be way cheaper than attempting to fix a good engine.

I had the gearbox fluid checked for glycol contamination in March and the tests were negative so went ahead and had the transmission and filter changed as i had been told about the glycol issue.
The engine is loosing water internally as i have had to top it up while i have had it.
 
If he tries to crank and it locks then how long would it take to force the water past the rings ? When the water clears then it should start right ? Assuming of course its water locked ,and that this is why it doesn't lock as soon as the new starter is in. Why did europa not just do as Mercsys suggests above ? If it wont crank, they remove the plugs, if it cranks freely then almost certainly its water. Or else still do the block test.... Are they giving up? Or you on them ? Nice not to be charged too much but pretty useless result. If ur starter goes again will they replace it again after someone else takes over ?


I don't think Europa have given up, they have given me a receipt stating the £144 diagnostic charge and their verdict that it is loosing coolant internally and causing the engine to lock up which is causing the starter to fail.
The next step Europa wanted to take was take the head off and have a look and said if it was just the head gasket it would cost £1300-1400!!!
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom