starter motor keeps burning out

[mafya]

If hard cranking/lock up is the case, the starter pinion/Bendix design may keep the starter physically engaged and powered even once the key is removed, this will require a battery disconnect to remedy or the starter will destroy itself!

Your problems, inconvenience and expense aside, I am quite enjoying this puzzle!
The problem seems to be intermittent, is the vehicle is daily use? Long runs? Short? Starter burns after, a long/short run, hot start attempt or cold? After a long period shutdown days? Is normal starting completely normal, not slow, longer than you expect, laboured… any other clues?

The problem is intermitent but only happens when the car has been parked up overnight. The vehicle is used daily and normal starting is spot on, it fires up straight away.
While Europa had it it hydrolocked once but the mechanic quickly removed the key to shut off the starter and it didn't burn out.

 

[mafya]

next step

I picked the car up from Europa this afternoon, it started up fine and have dropped it off at another garage run by a friend of a friend who also has an e270cdi and he is doing me the head gasket if i supply the gaskets, oil, oil filter, head bolts and coolant for £500 which includes sending my head off to be tested and skimmed.
If my head turns out to be cracked then it will be £200 added to the price and have to supply my own head.
This guy is a good mechanic and has worked on mercedes cars regularly.
Is this a decent price for the work?

 

[autopian]

if coolant can get in to the cylinder then combustion will find its way in to the coolant especially with a compression ignition surely! that should be easy enough to test without removing the head. my customers wouldn't stand £1400 'to have a look'

chris

 

[Danny DeVito]

In the europa techs words ' the coolant will leak past rings blah blah blah' what will be left to see ? Any moisture left will be burnt away. Isn't the combustion leakage just a tube thingy that connects to the car, fills with coolant and if cyl gases are present it changes colour. I never saw one but my mech buddy has one and said it shows really quick. Probably sealey sell one cheap. I think AutoP is right too thats a bit cheeky. Especially when they are missing a few easier checks. Then again is the other garage now just going to do the head and hope thats the problem aswell? And see #81 there, do you know if the mechanic tried to start it again immediately or soon after or any time after ? As for the price of HG i dont know how long it takes but reasonable enough

 

[Mercsys]

This is Block test, there are probably others, must be worth using to confirm a £500+ parts min job?

 

[mafya]

In the europa techs words ' the coolant will leak past rings blah blah blah' what will be left to see ? Any moisture left will be burnt away. Isn't the combustion leakage just a tube thingy that connects to the car, fills with coolant and if cyl gases are present it changes colour. I never saw one but my mech buddy has one and said it shows really quick. Probably sealey sell one cheap. I think AutoP is right too thats a bit cheeky. Especially when they are missing a few easier checks. Then again is the other garage now just going to do the head and hope thats the problem aswell? And see #81 there, do you know if the mechanic tried to start it again immediately or soon after or any time after ? As for the price of HG i dont know how long it takes but reasonable enough

They have given me a receipt for the diagnosis work carried out for £144 which states that water is leaking internally into the engine which is causing it to hydrolock intermitently thus jamming the starter and causing it to burn out, if it turns out not to be a head problem then Europa have got alot to answer for.
When it did hydrolock on the Europa tech i don't know how long after they tried to start it again.
The car has never overheated on me, it has never blown water out of the bottle, no mayonaise on the oil cap or oil in the water but it is using water and there are no external water leaks when it is hot or cold.
It has got me puzzled and i have a lot of money tied up in this car so the head work has to be done. Fingers crossed it should be a head gasket or head problem.
Got the genuine Mercedes head gasket kit and head bolts for £106 trade price, just need to get oil, filter and coolant.
Mechanic is going to start on the car this Tuesday coming so will keep you updated as this problem is really bugging me.

Billy

 

[mafya]

if coolant can get in to the cylinder then combustion will find its way in to the coolant especially with a compression ignition surely! that should be easy enough to test without removing the head. my customers wouldn't stand £1400 'to have a look'

chris

I know what your saying, i do know the car uses water but convinced myself it must have been an airlock that has worked itself round.

 

[Mercsys]

...injector bolts and seals?

I have seen a pin hole down the cylinder bore, displaying vaguely similar symptoms, thought it was big a 2 stroke supercharged GM diesel with a very long piston skirt that would mask the pinhole most of the time when stopped, but not all.

 

[Dichtung]

...injector bolts and seals?

I have seen a pin hole down the cylinder bore, displaying vaguely similar symptoms, thought it was big a 2 stroke supercharged GM diesel with a very long piston skirt that would mask the pinhole most of the time when stopped, but not all.

That would account for the random locking; might even cause a water build up in the sump. Has the sump plug been loosened to see if any water dribbles out first? Probably only seeps during cooling when the system is pressurised, - if this theory is correct.

Could oil be intermittently entering through an open valve?

I feel so sorry for this guy; I`m sure all who are following this thread are on a steep learning curve.

 

[Dichtung]

A bore pinhole would present the same symptoms as a head gasket leak during normal running; unless, it was barely exposed at BDC and sealed with oil. A possibility.

If a bore pinhole is present, surely MB should stand the bill.

 

[Dieselman]

This is Block test, there are probably others, must be worth using to confirm a £500+ parts min job?

^ What would be more amazing is water entering a cylinder due to a failed head gasket on a diesel engine. The high compression blows water out of the system.

I did suggest a Block Test in post#57 ^. Water won't be drawn into a diesel cylinder, it will be blown out of the header tank.

Here's mine in action.

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/engine/108173-head-gasket-testing.html

 

[Mercsys]

#91 agreed, but why are the starters burning?

 

[autopian]

#91 agreed, but why are the starters burning?

assuming they have carried out all the checks correctly and in order, like i have said i'm in the trade have never come across a head gasket problem which can't be diagnosed without lifting the head and where they are suggesting the fault is so small it cant be tested i cant see where they would be able to see the problem by lifting the gasket, its more likely to be a dripping injector hydro locking the engine as it is the head gasket. or even the hydraulic chain tensioner causing the cam chain to slacken enough the throw out the timing until oil pressure is achieved all of which can be diag without lifting the head, but this would show a fault on the engine management cam/crank sync.
anyway. good luck and hope it gets sorted.
chris

 

[mafya]

I did suggest a Block Test in post#57 ^. Water won't be drawn into a diesel cylinder, it will be blown out of the header tank.

Here's mine in action.

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/engine/108173-head-gasket-testing.html

If we forget about the starter motor burning out for a moment,

The radiator top hose is rock hard when engine is upto temprature, it doesn't throw water out of the bottle, the temprature is at 90 degrees and only goes to 100 degrees if you are stationary for some time but the fan kicks in and it goes back down, the thermostat is new, no bubbles or oil in the bottle, no mayonaise on the oil cap but it is using water.
The pressure tests revealed no leaks at cold or hot engine temprature which means the water is leaking into the engine and then the starter motor keeps burning out.
As you can see it is hard to suss out so i have decided to get the head gasket and head if needed changed and will get the injectors checked and cleaned up and hopefully this should sort it, if not the car will be getting broken up for bits.
Also do you think i should get the water pump changed aswell just for good measure?

 

[jonnyboy]

I think what you need to do is get the car to a proper independent for accurate diagnosis.
If you instruct someone to do this that and the other they will do as you ask, charge you for it, then take little responsibility if it turns out to be a weird and wonderful fault.
Get a proper proper proper diagnosis.
One of my lads told me a story this week. He dabbles a bit in cars and the likes. Came across a newish little van (I forget what, but it was an 06/07 I think) that the owner had spent £1600/1800 on trying to sort out a running fault. He was dealing with different garages/mechanics, all claiming they knew what it was. In the end my guy gave the bloke a nominal £500 to take the van away as the owner had had enough.
He spent some time thinking about what could be causing it. Took off the exhaust, smashed the cat internals out then put it back together.
He's used the van all week now, and it is spot on. Cheapest vehicle in the world with about a grands worth of new parts.




Otherwise, continue chucking money at it.

 

[AMGBlack]

I have a question.

If a water pressure test, shows no leaks . .
Then how does it leak into the engine. . if the test shows no leaks?
So it leaks, when it tests with no leaks. .

Am I the only one that cant get my head around that!

Anyway here is my two pence worth.

If the starter motor was staying engaged with the engine (sometimes) due to faulty electrics or worn flywheel / alignment not allowing the bendix to disengage, then this would occasionally “drive” the starter motor and burn it out (turning it inn effect into a dynamo and cause a burn out). When the engine was stopped, the motor would more likely disengage then due to loss of centrifugal force etc.

However sometimes the motor would stay engaged and this would also give the impression the engine was “locked” on trying to start again due to the fact that when you tried to start the car, as the bendix was still stuck, it gave the same symptoms as a hydraulic locked engine.

I have come across this fault on Scammell Commanders (tank transporters) in the Army, and we ended up fitting two starter motors such was the high failure rate. When we tried to start and got a “lock” a good thump of the starter motors with a hammer would allow the motor to disengage and it would then start.

Good luck and strangely I hope I am proved wrong about the gasket, but something is scratching my head so much that I had to say something.

Cheers

 

[Dichtung]

assuming they have carried out all the checks correctly and in order, like i have said i'm in the trade have never come across a head gasket problem which can't be diagnosed without lifting the head and where they are suggesting the fault is so small it cant be tested i cant see where they would be able to see the problem by lifting the gasket, its more likely to be a dripping injector hydro locking the engine as it is the head gasket. or even the hydraulic chain tensioner causing the cam chain to slacken enough the throw out the timing until oil pressure is achieved all of which can be diag without lifting the head, but this would show a fault on the engine management cam/crank sync.
anyway. good luck and hope it gets sorted.
chris

Not familiar with common rails, but how much fuel would drip out of an injector if the cut off became intermittantly faulty? Using my experience of hydraulically pressure testing huge vessels, I would think that if 0.5ml leaked, then all residual pressure in the common rail would be gone. No mention of black exhaust smoke.

 

[grober]

I am coming round to Merc sys initial suggestion that there may be a problem with gearbox/torque converter fluid contamination due to a leaking radiator heat exchanger coil. Altho the poster got his fluid tested in March that is a couple of months and several coolant top ups back? His car does fall into that dodgy Valeo radiator time interval I think??? Any record of a radiator replacement in the service record?? Would explain the mystery coolant loss?? A gearbox fluid and torque converter drain and fluid exam might reveal something at this later stage. If not -no harm done/no cost -- just replace the drained fluid.

 

[mafya]

I think what you need to do is get the car to a proper independent for accurate diagnosis.
If you instruct someone to do this that and the other they will do as you ask, charge you for it, then take little responsibility if it turns out to be a weird and wonderful fault.
Get a proper proper proper diagnosis.
One of my lads told me a story this week. He dabbles a bit in cars and the likes. Came across a newish little van (I forget what, but it was an 06/07 I think) that the owner had spent £1600/1800 on trying to sort out a running fault. He was dealing with different garages/mechanics, all claiming they knew what it was. In the end my guy gave the bloke a nominal £500 to take the van away as the owner had had enough.
He spent some time thinking about what could be causing it. Took off the exhaust, smashed the cat internals out then put it back together.
He's used the van all week now, and it is spot on. Cheapest vehicle in the world with about a grands worth of new parts.




Otherwise, continue chucking money at it.

Europa Mercedes is a mercedes approved workshop that used to be called Lancaster Mercedes.
I know the car is using water so suspect it is a head problem regarding the water loss. The starter problem started after about 2-3 mths of water loss.
If after having the head off and checking it and doing the gasket the problem still persists it will be getting broken up for spares.

 

[mafya]

I am coming round to Merc sys initial suggestion that there may be a problem with gearbox/torque converter fluid contamination. Altho the poster got his fluid tested in March that is a couple of months and several coolant top ups back? His car does fall into that dodgy Valeo radiator time interval I think??? Any record of a radiator replacement in the service record?? Would explain the mystery coolant loss?? A gearbox fluid and torque converter drain and fluid exam might reveal something at this later stage. If not -no harm done/no cost -- just replace the drained fluid

The gearbox fluid was checked and changed at the same time as when the third starter motor was put in and came back clear so i had the fluid and filter changed. The car had about 2-3 litres of coolant added before the gearbox fluid was checked as i suspected that this may be where the water was going.