The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

I fully understand that the consequences of getting stranded with zero battery are more dire than getting stranded with an empty fuel tank.

I think the issue is the range available on a typical EV means that people are more aware and watch the battery capacity more closely..

If the fully charged ranges were higher then they wouldn't be watched in the same way.

When using hire cars to travel long distances then with say an Mercedes diesel then I'd just care that the tank was half full or full - and expect that I had at least 300 miles on a half tank and up to 700 miles range on a full tank depending on the model. Plenty of scope to top up (or not) on a journey from south of England to Scotland.

If using something with a small petrol tank - such as a C-HR then things became more interesting - and I would be looking at the range. I would also be thinking about consumption if trying to manage where to stop. SWMBO's car has a range of about 400 miles max - it may be as low as 350 - we tend to watch that a bit more than any of the other cars we have owned.

So I would say that range watching isn't only an EV thing - but it's more commonly associated with EVs because of their characteristics.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I would also be thinking about consumption if trying to manage where to stop. SWMBO's car has a range of about 400 miles max - it may be as low as 350 - we tend to watch that a bit more than any of the other cars we have owned.

Do you live a long way from a fuel station, or drive very long distances very regularly to be concerned about a range “as low as 350” miles, or is there another reason your focused on range?

I don’t know many people in real life who are concerned about range of their existing ICE cars, and those who are concerned about the range of EVs do so from a place of unfamiliarity.

I can’t remember thinking about range, in fact I don’t think I ever have. I am setting aside chancing it with what I have in the tank rather than refuelling as that’s is artificially limited remaining range.

 

[BTB 500]

The point I was making is that people seem disappointed - often complaining - that the 'remaining range' changes as they drive. It's odd how people expect perfection from a gauge that was never perfect in any ICE vehicle before. I believe that this is, in part, why people find it difficult to adjust to EV - for some reason, they have a whole different range of expectations from their cars once they are electric.

Suppose you're used to small ICE cars where the range varies a bit, but you don't generally go up & down mountains so not by much. You never get less than 300 or 400 miles from a tank anyway, so it's largely academic.

You now buy a Fiat 500e 24 kWh with a WLTP range of 118 miles. You mostly use it for pottering about or perhaps a stop/start daily commute, and the range after a full charge usually shows about 130 miles. All is well with the world.

One sunny Saturday morning you have to go to a funeral that's 80 miles away. No problem. Except that while cruising down the motorway the total range steadily drops to 75 miles. Your previous ICE never did that, and now you're not going to reach your destination without stopping somewhere for a charge ... which is going to make you late.

Data from ev-database.org/uk :



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[Dryce]

Do you live a long way from a fuel station, or drive very long distances very regularly to be concerned about a range “as low as 350” miles, or is there another reason your focused on range?

This goes back to 'isses and no issues. So we have a situation where some people have no issue stopping on a long journey for an hour to fill themselves up and take a break. Others don't want to stop.

So I'm in the camp that doesn't like stopping.

In part this is time - when travelling for business I don't want to lose time messing about en-route and there may be time issues such as dodging rush hour or evening road works en-route.

I also travel frequently to the NE of Scotland. Not a hugely long journey. But time and stopping options are also a complication. And the timing is not always of my own choosing. The village where I stay doesn't have a filling station (ironic - there are now some charging facilities in the village - but in practical terms using them wouldn't be any more convenient than driving 10 miles - filling up and then returning back 10 miles).

And then when I use my car for travelling in the Highlands on a photo trip I'm not wanting to concern myself with losing light or other opportunity because I have to worry about diverting getting the car topped up or finding somewhere open in time.

My car does about 10K miles per year. It used to be 50:50 between longer journeys and short journeys Now it's more like 90:10 with only a small number of short journeys. I used to do another 30K almost all long distance for work.

I've always like having a car that can do well over 500 miles. And it has always irritated me when I have had less - especially less than 400.

I thought it was just me - but judging by the fact that miles and range and EVs seems to be an ongoing topic (not just here) over the last few years then I'm not the only one. Maybe I'm just a bit more open about discussing it.

 

[markjay]

You now buy a Fiat 500e 24 kWh with a WLTP range of 118 miles. You mostly use it for pottering about or perhaps a stop/start daily commute, and the range after a full charge usually shows about 130 miles. All is well with the world.

One sunny Saturday morning you have to go to a funeral that's 80 miles away. No problem. Except that while cruising down the motorway the total range steadily drops to 75 miles. Your previous ICE never did that, and now you're not going to reach your destination without stopping somewhere for a charge ... which is going to make you late.

But that's not a 'real-life' scenario.... for a real life description, you should add the following:

"You are livid. Who knew that EVs don't always live up to their WLTP? If only it was reported in the papers. Or at least in motoring magazines. Or even on Internet forums. Then you wouldn't have been caught out in this appalling way. But you knew nothing about it. You never suspected it for a minute. Even your mates at the local never said a word about it when ranting over EVs. How on earth were you supposed to know that the car will not provide 118 miles on a full charge in all circumstances??"

 

[ChipChop]

It wasn’t seized because it was a ‘cyber truck’ more likely because it didn’t have valid insurance as he was a UK resident driving on a foreign policy.

Yianni drives one daily through London on Albanian plates which is insured correctly for him to drive, he was stopped by the police and had no bother.

The individually imported ones will also soon likely pass an IVA with a few adaptations such as rubber strips over the edges and be on UK plates.

It only made the news because it’s a Tesla. How many vehicles get seized for no insurance daily in the UK… Good click bait.

‘Old rusty merc falling to bits and a massive safety concern - seized for no MOT and scrapped’ probably wouldn’t get much attention, but far more common.

You obviously know the law better than Greater Manchester Police.

No idea who Yianni is?

 

[BTB 500]

It will be great to see more HFCs on the road, and interesting to see how they fit alongside other fuel/powertrain combinations. It will be fascinating to see how drivers at large perceive HCF suitability in terms of purchase cost, running cost, longevity, convenience, infrastructure, etc. It would be tragic if progress is thwarted by the general population not letting go of the past.

Yup it will be interesting to see how it pans out. Developing the distribution & filling infrastructure would obviously be a key factor for road use.

Meanwhile JCB's hydrogen combustion engine has been licensed for commercial use in the Netherlands Great Britain, Northern Ireland, Germany, France, Spain, Belgium, Poland, Finland, Switzerland and Lichtenstein with other countries to follow.

Landmark start to 2025 as JCB's Hydrogen engine approved for use | News

JCB has secured landmark rulings from licensing authorities allowing its hydrogen combustion engine to be used commercially in machines.

www.jcb.com

I suspect large on-site generators will be a significant market:

The JCB Hydrogen Generator | A pioneering power supply

Zero emissions, ultimate accessibility, maximum efficiency. Discover why our hydrogen power generator represents the future of the worksite.

www.jcb.com

 

[SmartAmg]

So I would say that range watching isn't only an EV thing - but it's more commonly associated with EVs because of their characteristics.

Agree. Did I just say that.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Do you live a long way from a fuel station, or drive very long distances very regularly to be concerned about a range “as low as 350” miles, or is there another reason your focused on range?

I don’t know many people in real life who are concerned about range of their existing ICE cars, and those who are concerned about the range of EVs do so from a place of unfamiliarity.

I can’t remember thinking about range, in fact I don’t think I ever have. I am setting aside chancing it with what I have in the tank rather than refuelling as that’s is artificially limited remaining range.

Google says I could drive 345 miles from Derby to Dundee in 6 hours 8 minutes. That would be quite an exceptional journey for most people in the UK.

I couldn’t imagine driving 6 hours without stopping to refuel the car, never mind take a break, eat, take on fluids and release fluids

Even driving back from the South of France to the UK in the middle of the night, I don't think I ever managed a 6 hour stint without stopping.

 

[Bellow]

Meanwhile JCB's hydrogen combustion engine has been licensed for commercial use in the Netherlands Great Britain, Northern Ireland, Germany, France, Spain, Belgium, Poland, Finland, Switzerland and Lichtenstein with other countries to follow.

Beyond 2030/35?

 

[BTB 500]

But that's not a 'real-life' scenario.... for a real life description, you should add the following:

"You are livid. Who knew that EVs don't always live up to their WLTP? If only it was reported in the papers. Or at least in motoring magazines. Or even on Internet forums. Then you wouldn't have been caught out in this appalling way. But you knew nothing about it. You never suspected it for a minute. Even your mates at the local never said a word about it when ranting over EVs. How on earth were you supposed to know that the car will not provide 118 miles on a full charge in all circumstances??"

Many of the target market for small EVs are not in the least technically minded though, and have little interest in motoring.

Everybody knows that ICEs rarely reach their official mpg figures, but as mentioned that's pretty academic when they can still do 400 miles or so per tank all year round. And give better range on longer trips involving motorway driving, not much worse. I doubt many 'average people' are aware that in 2025 you can buy a new car that might only manage as little as 75 miles or so (in practice even less because nobody would drive down to 0%).

 

[clk320x]

You obviously know the law better than Greater Manchester Police.

No idea who Yianni is?

The police often misinterpret the law, hence so many things get thrown out when in court.

I don’t think the issue here is they don’t know the law, it’s that the FB report hasn’t got the full story.

 

[BTB 500]

Beyond 2030/35?

Presumably, yes. I doubt they'd have spent £100 million developing something with a lifespan of just a few years. And nobody in their right mind would buy it if they had.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

One sunny Saturday morning you have to go to a funeral that's 80 miles away. No problem. Except that while cruising down the motorway the total range steadily drops to 75 miles. Your previous ICE never did that, and now you're not going to reach your destination without stopping somewhere for a charge ... which is going to make you late.

Data from ev-database.org/uk :

View attachment 166578

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I happen to know a little about the Fiat 500e.

It might indeed be a problem if you hadn’t ever driven that Fiat 500e before and hadn’t read or heard anything about real world use of EVs - so had assumed that it would not be necessary to stop at all - and had planned to arrive at exactly the time the funeral (which is 80 miles away) starts.

Possible but unlikely.

In practice, driving at 60 mph on a sunny Saturday should get you there without charging, but even if the said motorway is unusually clear - or in Scotland - then even a 10 minute stop on anything other than the slowest chargers would get you to your destination with range to spare.

More likely would be that the driver would be well aware of the range being reduced at high speed, and would plan to stop and recharge at the location. They would also set out with a bit of a buffer between arrival time and funeral start time, just like any driver would when travelling to a funeral 80 miles away.

So in practice they wouldn’t be late.

 

[Bellow]

Presumably, yes. I doubt they'd have spent £100 million developing something with a lifespan of just a few years. And nobody in their right mind would buy it if they had.

Not definite though...
Five to ten years of sales plus ensuing parts is a given - enough? It's just that what is being proposed here is ICE and my understanding is sales of ICE end in 2030/35, UK/EU respectively. If, it is to sell beyond 2030/35, what we have here is ICE with alternative fuel. The implication is ICE on any carbon neutral fuel is acceptable.

 

[markjay]

Many of the target market for small EVs are not in the least technically minded though, and have little interest in motoring.

Everybody knows that ICEs rarely reach their official mpg figures, but as mentioned that's pretty academic when they can still do 400 miles or so per tank all year round. And give better range on longer trips involving motorway driving, not much worse. I doubt many 'average people' are aware that in 2025 you can buy a new car that might only manage as little as 75 miles or so (in practice even less because nobody would drive down to 0%).

Agreed, though I really cannot understand people spending good money on a new car (or, at least, new-to-them), and not doing some research prior to the purchase. It's not like there's shortage of information on Google...

When it comes to ICE cars, the currency is mpg, and when it comes to EV, it's range (two sides of the same coin). In either car, people come on here and are 'shocked' to discover that the actual figure depends on several factors including driving style, and a variety of internal and external factors.

The 'worst offenders', to my mind, are people driving new Hybrid cars on a business lease - they have carefully calculated that they can commute home and back on electricity only, and are furious when in real life they are short of 3 or 4 miles to complete the commute without the petrol engine running. They have been conned!

I mean, before signing on the dotted line committing to spend £xxx over 2 or 3 years, can you not Google 'C350e review' (or whatever model you're buying)? Seriously?

 

[BTB 500]

More likely would be that the driver would be well aware of the range being reduced at high speed, and would plan to stop and recharge at the location. They would also set out with a bit of a buffer between arrival time and funeral start time, just like any driver would when travelling to a funeral 80 miles away.

So in practice they wouldn’t be late.

Yeah but ...

If you needed to use that buffer for 'normal' reasons (traffic/road closure/etc.) and had to stop for an unplanned charge as well then you might well be late.

As an aside there weren't any EV charging facilities available at either of the funerals I went to last year.

Of course it was just a sample scenario anyway. The destination might have been a bit further away, it might have been a car with less range (secondhand Leaf, maybe), etc.

 

[BTB 500]

The implication is ICE on any carbon neutral fuel is acceptable.

Hydrogen combustion is zero carbon at point of use though, which is a bit different.

 

[markjay]

...The individually imported ones will also soon likely pass an IVA with a few adaptations such as rubber strips over the edges and be on UK plates....

Or driven out of the UK to Europe after 6 months, then brought back in.....

 

[clk320x]

Or driven out of the UK to Europe after 6 months, then brought back in.....

From what I understand they have no way to check that’s even happened anyway.