The EV fact thread

[MikeInWimbledon]

But replacing the type of component where cost-cutting could be a factor (e.g. a bought in contactor/relay) on an ICE wouldn't typically require the removal and disassembly of the engine.

Examples of engine failures as a result of cost cutting that required removal, replacement and rework that come to mind are the Nikasil disaster for BMW engines in the UK, piston scoring on Porsche 996/997 engines, IMS bearing failures on Porsche in the Nougties, the nightmare that was M47 & M57 BMW engines between the mid-noughties and mid-teens.

But that's just off the top of my head. There are many more, for sure.

And obviously that excludes all the Dieselgate recalls which did not involve complete engine removal. Like the 775,000 Mercedes.

Daimler forced to recall Mercedes with defeat devices

The German government says 774,000 Mercedes were fitted with illegal software that masks diesel emissions.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[BTB 500]

Don't all German manufacturers have a poor reputation for reliability?

If you're talking about cars, then not AFAIK. E.g. BMW/Mini are highly rated, overall.

I haven't gone into all the detail on this, but does the Porsche have the same problem as the Audi BECAUSE it's essentially the same company / battery set up?

(As in Taycan is the Audi E-Tron GT platform with more battery and motor options)

Yes AFAIK they share the same platform.

No link with Jaguar and the I-PACE though.

 

[BTB 500]

Qashqai ICE's seem pretty unreliable, coming 31st out of 46 cars in the ICE SUV class

Used Nissan Qashqai - 2014-2021 Reliability & Common Problems

What to look for when buying a Nissan Qashqai 2014 - 2021, covering common problems to check for and overall vehicle reliability.

www.whatcar.com

But actually it had a pretty respectable reliability score of 92.2%, so the relative ranking isn't that significant. In fact it's higher rated than a whole bunch of EVs, including the Tesla Model 3 for example:

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

If you're talking about cars, then not AFAIK. E.g. BMW/Mini are highly rated, overall.

As I said, BMW had enormous difficulties in the UK because of cost-cutting on the Nikasil liners which couldn't cope with UK petrol standards. This was a huge commercial problem for them.

The N47 had a huge reliability problem with recalls and service campaigns to rectify issues before engines exploded. It was only later versions which removed the initial design errors which caused timing chain failure.

BMW N47 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The N63 petrol V8 on the vehicles such as the 550i (the F10) was generally described as "garbage," and "the worst engine that BMW ever made," with a reliability rating of 1.5 (out of 5), . BMW dealers were famed for storing damaged cars for 3-6 months for owners while waiting for replacement engines from Germany.

But hey, Internal Combustion: the clue is in the words.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

But actually it had a pretty respectable reliability score of 92.2%, so the relative ranking isn't that significant. In fact it's higher rated than a whole bunch of EVs, including the Tesla Model 3 for example:

View attachment 166434

View attachment 166435

Yes, the Qashqai is in the bottom third of all ICE family SUV's,

so unreliable compared to its equivalents.

 

[BTB 500]

Examples of engine failures as a result of cost cutting that required removal, replacement and rework that come to mind are the Nikasil disaster for BMW engines in the UK, piston scoring on Porsche 996/997 engines, IMS bearing failures on Porsche in the Nougties, the nightmare that was M47 & M57 BMW engines between the mid-noughties and mid-teens.

But that's just off the top of my head. There are many more, for sure.

And obviously that excludes all the Dieselgate recalls which did not involve complete engine removal. Like the 775,000 Mercedes.

Daimler forced to recall Mercedes with defeat devices

The German government says 774,000 Mercedes were fitted with illegal software that masks diesel emissions.

www.bbc.co.uk

And which of those relate to cost cutting on bought-in components?

Of course ICE cars have been made in vast quantities by a huge number of manufacturers, so inevitably there have been some design/manufacturing cockups in the past. Who can forget the terrible crankshaft bearings in the 1903 De Dion Bouton

 

[BTB 500]

Yes, the Qashqai is in the bottom third of all ICE family SUV's,

so unreliable compared to its equivalents.

And yet so much more reliable than many current BEVs. QED.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Yes AFAIK they share the same platform.

No link with Jaguar and the I-PACE though.

You said "Interesting to see two major manufacturers being sued like this though."

My point was that these two brands are subsidiaries of the same company, using the same platform and battery technology. So a problem on one is likely to be problem on the other.

There are MANY class actions washing around against the I-Pace over battery problems. That's why the I-Pace resale value is so poor, why demand fell and why Jaguar dumped the design so quickly, without update. But hey, it's a Jaguar, what else could you expect, given Jaguar's appalling history of Internal Combustion reliability?

Jaguar I-Pace Recall: What SUV Owners Need to Know About Battery Fire Risk - Wirtz Law APC

Jaguar Land Rover North America has issued yet another recall for the 2019 I-Pace electric SUV, urging owners to park away from structures and other vehicles due to potential battery-related fire risks.

www.wirtzlaw.com

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

And which of those relate to cost cutting on bought-in components?

Of course ICE cars have been made in vast quantities by a huge number of manufacturers, so inevitably there have been some design/manufacturing cockups in the past. Who can forget the terrible crankshaft bearings in the 1903 De Dion Bouton

All of them relate to cost cutting on bought-in components.

Manufacturers stopped making "components" themselves back in the 20th Century, even De Dion Bouton didn't make its own bearings in 1903

 

[BTB 500]

All of them relate to cost cutting on bought-in components.

Manufacturers stopped making "components" themselves back in the 20th Century, even De Dion Bouton didn't make its own bearings in 1903

I stand corrected then. I assumed BMW etc. actually manufactured at least some parts of their engines themselves back then.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Jaguar iPace drivers have had to deal with a number of issues.

They’re a popular choice in my team, and they’ve all had a replacement heater on at least one occasion, and some have had the replacement fail too - they seem more like to fail in winter ironically.

I don’t know whether the heater is unique to EVs - I suspect it is - but I’m told that it’s not unique to Jaguar and affects other car brands too. It’s a real pain for the owners though, especially in winter.

The other very common fault - which most seem to have had - is a leaking windscreen. I’m told it’s down to insufficient adhesive/seal applied at the factory. Not an EV thing, could be a cost saving thing.

Shame though as they all really rate the car apart from these very common issues. All information secondhand from people who drive cars rather than love cars, so details on cause are light!

 

[PXW]

But actually it had a pretty respectable reliability score of 92.2%, so the relative ranking isn't that significant. In fact it's higher rated than a whole bunch of EVs, including the Tesla Model 3 for example:

View attachment 166434

View attachment 166435

Istr that some of these reliability charts are based on faults that in practise don’t make any difference to the user - especially on EVs with OTA updates. It doesn’t necessarily equate to that percentage of car users being stranded or without their vehicle while it it is tended in a workshop.

Certainly various “issues” on the Tesla (even a “recall”, iirc) have just been sorted out with a flash update not even requiring the owner to visit a workshop.

Not to say there aren’t issues, of course, but some manufacturers are better than others at using data from the fleet to analyse and correct, and over time that does mean that not all “reliability” issues are equal.

 

[markjay]

Istr that some of these reliability charts are based on faults that in practise don’t make any difference to the user - especially on EVs with OTA updates. It doesn’t necessarily equate to that percentage of car users being stranded or without their vehicle while it it is tended in a workshop.

Certainly various “issues” on the Tesla (even a “recall”, iirc) have just been sorted out with a flash update not even requiring the owner to visit a workshop.

Not to say there aren’t issues, of course, but some manufacturers are better than others at using data from the fleet to analyse and correct, and over time that does mean that not all “reliability” issues are equal.

Agreed, though Tesla's OTA clouds matters.

An MB owner experiencing an issue with a new car, will book an appointment with the dealer, who'll advice the owner that if the issue isn't something that is covered by warranty then a diagnostic fee will apply. They then bring the car in, go back home in a taxi, come back a day later to collect the car, and are told that the issue was resolved by a 'software update" (or just told that the issue was fixed, with no further details - some owners don't care) - of course they'll rate the car poorly in a reliability survey, especially if it happens more than once.

The point is that it can be difficult to compare the underlying reliability based on owners' reports when one brand uses OTA while the other does not.

 

[BIGDOG]

Agreed, though Tesla's OTA clouds matters.

An MB owner experiencing an issue with a new car, will book an appointment with the dealer, who'll advice the owner that if the issue isn't something that is covered by warranty then a diagnostic fee will apply. They then bring the car in, go back home in a taxi, come back a day later to collect the car, and are told that the issue was resolved by a 'software update" (or just told that the issue was fixed, with no further details - some owners don't care) - of course they'll rate the car poorly in a reliability survey, especially if it happens more than once.

The point is that it can be difficult to compare the underlying reliability based on owners' reports when one brand uses OTA while the other does not.

I’m surprised that MB don’t have this facility, even my Volvo received updates this way. The last one updated the CarPlay/Android settings and gearbox.

 

[markjay]

I’m surprised that MB don’t have this facility, even my Volvo received updates this way. The last one updated the CarPlay/Android settings and gearbox.

All brands are now starting to implement it, albeit slowly. It's the way things are going (like OS updates on computers and phones). As always, Elon Musk did it 15 years ago.... now everyone is catching up.

 

[BIGDOG]

All brands are now starting to implement it, albeit slowly. It's the way things are going (like OS updates on computers and phones). As always, Elon Musk did it 15 years ago.... now everyone is catching up.

Except MB.

 

[markjay]

Except MB.

They will... in time. There went with OTA maps update a few years back, which is a start.

 

[BTB 500]

I’m surprised that MB don’t have this facility.

They do - even my 2019 C Class has received OTA software updates.

 

[BTB 500]

They will... in time. There went with OTA maps update a few years back, which is a start.

My MB is coming up for 6 years old and has always received OTA map updates (as well as the software updates I mentioned).

 

[markjay]

My MB is coming up for 6 years old and has always received OTA map updates (as well as the software updates I mentioned).

I did read a while back that MB were going to provide OTA updates for the infotainment system firmware.

But I believe that most firmware updates still require STAR, and need to be done physically at the dealer.

Perhaps someone with a new car can confirm?