The EV fact thread

[ALFAitalia]

Not as good obviously....but still way more efficient that an ICE car. Only if you make AND fuel your EV car 100% from coal power electricity does it get dodgy......but that just wont happen.

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Electric vehicles are still better, even if the battery is produced from a coal-heavy electricity mix​

“Electric cars are just as bad because the batteries are produced in coal-heavy China”. This is a common argument against EVs.

Let’s see if it’s true.

We’re going to imagine that the cars are produced with an electricity mix that is 100% coal. That’s much more carbon-intensive than producing it in China, which gets around 60% of its electricity from coal. But let’s just go all the way to the extreme.

Let’s then imagine that you’re a Californian (or a Brit), so the electricity is coming from the local mix.

In the chart, we see the results. There’s no contest: EVs emit much less than fossil cars, even though they emit more in their production.


However, the tables turn if the car was produced from electricity running on 100% coal and it was run on coal too. To be clear: this is an unrealistic extreme. There’s nowhere in the world where this is the case.

In the chart, we see the impact.

EVs don’t beat the most efficient conventional cars. They do have lower emissions than most mid-range cars. And they certainly emit much less than bigger gas-guzzlers.

But in a scenario where you’re running your car completely on coal, the benefits of an EV are marginal, if they exist at all. This is why decarbonising the electricity mix is so important.

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EVs can get much better: if we move to low-carbon electricity, their footprint will be very small​

The emissions of EVs in this article are not fixed: they will get lower over time, as the world decarbonises its electricity.

When they’re charged by a low-carbon mix of renewables and nuclear, the emissions of an EV are tiny.

In the chart, we see the new comparison, where the ‘driving’ emissions of the EVs are effectively zero.


Again, we can look at the cumulative annual emissions of the Nissan Leaf and the Fiat 500. The cumulative emissions are shown in tonnes of CO₂ after 1, 2, 3 years of driving, and so on. Year ‘0’ is the emissions from the production of the car alone.

After car production, the two trends completely diverge. The fossil fuel car continues to rise, year-after-year. Emissions from the EV do not rise at all.

 

[ALFAitalia]

You do spend a lot of time slagging off a type of car that you wont probably ever buy......nearly as much as I spend defending cars I'll never buy I guess!!! But I'm all for others buying them. The more that buy EVs the happier the Gov and the tree huggers will be and the less likely we are to have legislation thrust upon us to force us ICE lovers off the road. So I'm hoping for a big jump in EV sales this year.....my dad is likely to be one of them!!!

 

[Will]

Some crossed wires here, maybe.

Obviously the 2008 regs. were aimed at reducing flash flooding etc. and were nothing to do with EVs. I only mentioned this in the context of people who currently park an ICE on-road (or maybe don't have a car at all) wanting to add a driveway in order to home-charge an EV. Obviously including drainage would increase the cost of this, and I guess there must have been reasons (cost, durability, ) for impermeable surfaces being widely used before? Including a dropped kerb, the total cost of adding off-road parking isn't trivial and could be a deterrent to some. I last did it in 2004, when I got the SL

I think it’s likely to be a requirement for future developments to provide parking and probably charging points too.

Regards the change in regs - unpopular topic but extremes of climate e.g. rainfall and more development due to an ever increasing population are probably the drivers for this. Over time things are analysed and changes made where required - same with most aspects of building regs I guess.

Naturally some costs associated with adding off street parking or charging to a property - but likely to add value/desirability for either rental or resale, so not a waste of money really. I think there have been government schemes with grants for adding charging points too.

Off street parking likely to reduce insurance premiums too which add up over time, and obviously if you can charge at home you could well benefit from a significant reduction in charging costs.

Glass half full IMHO

 

[Bellow]

Not as good obviously....but still way more efficient that an ICE car. Only if you make AND fuel your EV car 100% from coal power electricity does it get dodgy......but that just wont happen.

---

Electric vehicles are still better, even if the battery is produced from a coal-heavy electricity mix​

“Electric cars are just as bad because the batteries are produced in coal-heavy China”. This is a common argument against EVs.

Let’s see if it’s true.

We’re going to imagine that the cars are produced with an electricity mix that is 100% coal. That’s much more carbon-intensive than producing it in China, which gets around 60% of its electricity from coal. But let’s just go all the way to the extreme.

Let’s then imagine that you’re a Californian (or a Brit), so the electricity is coming from the local mix.

In the chart, we see the results. There’s no contest: EVs emit much less than fossil cars, even though they emit more in their production.


However, the tables turn if the car was produced from electricity running on 100% coal and it was run on coal too. To be clear: this is an unrealistic extreme. There’s nowhere in the world where this is the case.

In the chart, we see the impact.

EVs don’t beat the most efficient conventional cars. They do have lower emissions than most mid-range cars. And they certainly emit much less than bigger gas-guzzlers.

But in a scenario where you’re running your car completely on coal, the benefits of an EV are marginal, if they exist at all. This is why decarbonising the electricity mix is so important.

---

EVs can get much better: if we move to low-carbon electricity, their footprint will be very small​

The emissions of EVs in this article are not fixed: they will get lower over time, as the world decarbonises its electricity.

When they’re charged by a low-carbon mix of renewables and nuclear, the emissions of an EV are tiny.

In the chart, we see the new comparison, where the ‘driving’ emissions of the EVs are effectively zero.


Again, we can look at the cumulative annual emissions of the Nissan Leaf and the Fiat 500. The cumulative emissions are shown in tonnes of CO₂ after 1, 2, 3 years of driving, and so on. Year ‘0’ is the emissions from the production of the car alone.

After car production, the two trends completely diverge. The fossil fuel car continues to rise, year-after-year. Emissions from the EV do not rise at all.

As I type this, 53.6% of UK generation is from gas. Do we know the mix of the 12.1% imported? Wind and solar combined are contributing 11%. Doubting that those are the figures your graphs had in mind when it cites UK and Californian mixes.

Energy Dashboard - real time and historical GB electricity data, carbon emissions and UK generation sites mapping

Live and historical GB National Grid electricity data, showing generation, demand and carbon emissions and UK generation sites mapping with API subscription service.

www.energydashboard.co.uk

 

[markjay]

As I type this, 53.6% of UK generation is from gas. Do we know the mix of the 12.1% imported? Wind and solar combined are contributing 11%. Doubting that those are the figures your graphs had in mind when it cites UK and Californian mixes.

Energy Dashboard - real time and historical GB electricity data, carbon emissions and UK generation sites mapping

Live and historical GB National Grid electricity data, showing generation, demand and carbon emissions and UK generation sites mapping with API subscription service.

www.energydashboard.co.uk

I think that the key question isn't where we are historically, but the trajectory of where we're heading.

There's no doubt that both the West and China are advancing in the direction of cleaner power production. Less coal, more renewables, etc.

Therefore, anything powered by electricity will in future be less harmful to the environment than ICE (if it isn't already the case). I am aware that there are some ultra-low-emissions ICE designs, but none of them are likely to go into mass production in the foreseeable future.

 

[Bellow]

I think that the key equation isn't where we are historically, but the trajectory of where we're heading.

Too damn close to blackouts is where we are heading. We came close in recent weeks and the demand with more EVs and electric heating of buildings is a race against generators' ability to keep up. But the pretence of green generation is clung to despite right now 53.6% of it coming from fossil fuel.

 

[markjay]

Too damn close to blackouts is where we are heading. We came close in recent weeks and the demand with more EVs and electric heating of buildings is a race against generators' ability to keep up. But the pretence of green generation is clung to despite right now 53.6% of it coming from fossil fuel.

If we need to cut our electricity usage, then we should take some drastic steps across the board. Pinpointing EVs as the issue isn't a serious response to the problem (if we have one).

 

[Will]

Too damn close to blackouts is where we are heading. We came close in recent weeks and the demand with more EVs and electric heating of buildings is a race against generators' ability to keep up. But the pretence of green generation is clung to despite right now 53.6% of it coming from fossil fuel.

I thought we were using significantly less electricity as a nation than we did a decade or two prior? The national grid did publish some data supporting this and have given the green light supporting the change over to using more EVs.

I’m sure it’s been mentioned previously, but bi-directional power connections from EVs to the grid is a real possibility for future stability - EVs have huge storage potential and with the correct charger/inverter setup can provide support to the grid to smooth out the peaks in demand

 

[Will]

The highest peak electricity demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency.

Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle.

Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles | National Grid Group

Can the electricity grid cope with more EVs? And what really happens to old EV batteries? Find out the answer to these and many more questions about electric vehicles in our comprehensive EV myth-buster.

www.nationalgrid.com

 

[Bellow]

Pinpointing EVs as the issue isn't a serious response to the problem (if we have one).

Funny, no - that the two coincide? The closest we've been to a blackout in decades and the increased use of EVs

If we need to cut our electricity usage, then we should take some drastic steps across the board.

Where shall we begin? By challenging the notion that pre-warming an EV while connected to the grid is without impact? AI - where the notion that despite its massive energy consumption it is the saviour for the energy savings it will deliver which, only reminds me of someone driving 50 miles for diesel at 1p a litre cheaper believing they are saving themselves money.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Too damn close to blackouts is where we are heading. We came close in recent weeks and the demand with more EVs and electric heating of buildings is a race against generators' ability to keep up. But the pretence of green generation is clung to despite right now 53.6% of it coming from fossil fuel.

They have been saying that for years.....never seems to happen though. We use less power and produce more than we have for years....more scaremongering. Personally I'll believe it if it happens and not before.......and based on past forecasts of doom I'll be waiting a while!!!

 

[Bellow]

They have been saying that for years.....never seems to happen though. We use less power and produce more than we have for years....more scaremongering. Personally I'll believe it if it happens and not before.......and based on past forecasts of doom I'll be waiting a while!!!

11% from wind and solar on a day where it is 2C outside my door - the warmest it's been for weeks, the first day in weeks it's been out of negative figures. Doesn't reassure me that we're on top of it. Yes, we are producing so much more that 12% of our electricity is imported.
The closeness to blackout was discussed on the politics thread. We were very close to it happening.

 

[ALFAitalia]

"Close" is not the same as "happened". I was close to crashing my pickup the other weekend.......but nothing happened.

 

[Bellow]

"Close" is not the same as "happened". I was close to crashing my pickup the other weekend.......but nothing happened.

Phew! Thanks for that. It's really put my mind at ease. How stupid I am to be concerned that what we've placed our future generation on is only producing 11% in the middle of winter.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Worry about it if it happens.......and I'm betting it wont.......

When was the last time a power cut was caused by lack of power?.....googling I can find anything since the 70s that was not caused by technical issues, strikes or storm damage. What I CAN find for nearly every year is pessimists like you writing articles in the papers saying that there might be black outs this winter....you can find them for nearly every year....and did they happen?..... nope!

National Grid insists "power cuts are a worst-case scenario". It also has some "contingency measures in place".

 

[BTB 500]

Regarding that "Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles" National Grid page.

Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%.

If there are 40 million vehicles in the UK (I think that's about right?) and they were all EVs using (a pretty conservative figure I think) 10 kWh per day that would require 400,000 MWh a day, or 146 TWh a year. The UK's current annual electricity consumption is 266 TWh (2023, latest data I could find) ... so I make that an increase of 55%. In reality it would be much higher as electric vans, HGVs, buses etc. would all be using way more than 10 kWh a day (e.g. 600 kWh batteries in the Amazon delivery trucks mentioned a day or so ago, and 462 kWh in London buses). So an 'overnight increase' figure of 10% seems very low to me

There's some other interesting stuff in there e.g.

A big part of managing demand for electricity, including through increased EV uptake, is making sure power is there when we need it – a job Britain’s National Energy System Operator (NESO) manages second-by-second.

Through smart charging EVs can in fact help to balance the system, helping consumers use green power when it’s plentiful (and often cheaper) and avoid times when there’s more load on the network. Vehicle-to-grid technology could even send that power back to the grid when needed.

With this in mind, the UK Government has introduced Electric Vehicle Smart Charge Points Regulations, which ensure that EV charge points will have this smart functionality.

Those regulations imply that you may not necessarily be able to charge a vehicle whenever you want/need to:

The regulations ensure charge points have smart functionality, allowing the charging of an electric vehicle when there is less demand on the grid, or when more renewable electricity is available.

As @markjay mentioned charging will need to be software managed to keep total demand at any given time within the peak capacity of the network.

V2G is interesting as part of a load-balancing / peak management strategy but if a demand peak comes from EV charging requirements then taking power from EVs to fill it may not make sense! There are possible implications for EV battery longevity too, as the number of charge cycles is a known factor in this.

Will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Bored now!!

Don't reply.....step away from the PC........step away from........resist....resist......

 

[Bellow]

Worry about it if it happens.......and I'm betting it wont.......

When was the last time a power cut was caused by lack of power?.....googling I can find anything since the 70s that was not caused by technical issues, strikes or storm damage. What I CAN find for nearly every year is pessimists like you writing articles in the papers saying that there might be black outs this winter....you can find them for nearly every year....and did they happen?..... nope!

National Grid insists "power cuts are a worst-case scenario". It also has some "contingency measures in place".

Have a look at what was said on the politics thread especially what was paid for imported electricity to avoid the blackout. Circa £55/kW.hr IIRC.
No matter, head in the sand is useful practice for when the blackouts come. Nothing like some familiarisation of enforced darkness as preparation for the eventuality.

 

[Will]

Regarding that "Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles" National Grid page.



If there are 40 million vehicles in the UK (I think that's about right?) and they were all EVs using (a pretty conservative figure I think) 10 kWh per day that would require 400,000 MWh a day, or 146 TWh a year. The UK's current annual electricity consumption is 266 TWh (2023, latest data I could find) ... so I make that an increase of 55%. In reality it would be much higher as electric vans, HGVs, buses etc. would all be using way more than 10 kWh a day (e.g. 600 kWh batteries in the Amazon delivery trucks mentioned a day or so ago, and 462 kWh in London buses). So an 'overnight increase' figure of 10% seems very low to me

There's some other interesting stuff in there e.g.



Those regulations imply that you may not necessarily be able to charge a vehicle whenever you want/need to:



As @markjay mentioned charging will need to be software managed to keep total demand at any given time within the peak capacity of the network.

V2G is interesting as part of a load-balancing / peak management strategy but if a demand peak comes from EV charging requirements then taking power from EVs to fill it may not make sense! There are possible implications for EV battery longevity too, as the number of charge cycles is a known factor in this.

Will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

I think you’re looking at this to simplistically Bill.

Eg - how much electricity is used to support the entire process of supplying fuel to ICE vehicles? From refining to pump - I bet it’s more that some will have thought - it was mentioned that around 4.5kwh is used to refine one gallon of petrol? Obviously if all cars are EV there will be some offset to consider.

And cars are reportedly parked up for 96% of the time. If V2G takes off, that’s a huge amount of potential capacity using your 40 million vehicle figure - if anything a more stable and secure network of power that can cope more effectively with changes in production and demand especially as the tech and software to manage this is brought in.

I’m not sure on the figures for consumption either - annual mileage has reduced and I expect efficiency will be better instead of worse. Eg 3.3 miles per kWh, 7k miles PA would be less than 6kWh? Of course in winter and at high motorway speeds we know EVs will use more, but many will use less especially as speed limits are reduced and congestion is likely to be a factor if you have more vehicles in future too. Newer and smaller EVs seem to be capable of 4 miles plus per kWh and I suspect that trend will continue. Even accounting for your losses in charging that you speak about, it’s a lot less than 10kWh per vehicle per day - closer to half of that

 

[SmartAmg]

Bored now!!

Don't reply.....step away from the PC........step away from........resist....resist......

Resistance is Futile!