The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

I think that the key question isn't where we are historically, but the trajectory of where we're heading.

I'm with @Bellow on this.

We're already too close to blackouts - or more technically - business rationing.

The trajectory on generation has been stagnation for non-wind. So wind blows - everything fine - for now. But we get by because we have a few remaining life extended power stations. And we have foreign suppliers who can provide support.

There is also the issue of cost. Our energy isn't cheap - despite the wind being free.

And building Hinckley Point C seems to demonstrate an HS2 like overhead when it comes to costs of reliable alternatives to wind.

At the end of the day we are already paying for 30 years of neglect - and over the next decade or two we'll find out how much more we'll be paying indecision and dogma.

 

[Dryce]

Yes - but Bill was quoting the figure needed per day (he estimated 10kWh on average per day, which I felt didn’t correlate with annual usage) - 2121/365 is about 5.8 kWh per day. Plus the charging losses that he likes to mention of course…

Sorry if that was not clear

So ....

According to Ofgem, the average British household has 2.4 people living in it and uses 2,700 kWh of electricity and 11,500 kWh of gas.

So on that number household uses 7kWh per day electricity and 31kWh per day equivalent from gas.

So add a car. Your 5.8 per day is a sizeable chunk of 7.

But 2.4 people per household - we could have more than one car.

And then we have the switch to electricity for heating ... replacing that 31kWh

We really need to start building more power stations.

 

[markjay]

I'm with @Bellow on this.

We're already too close to blackouts - or more technically - business rationing.

The trajectory on generation has been stagnation for non-wind. So wind blows - everything fine - for now. But we get by because we have a few remaining life extended power stations. And we have foreign suppliers who can provide support.

There is also the issue of cost. Our energy isn't cheap - despite the wind being free.

And building Hinckley Point C seems to demonstrate an HS2 like overhead when it comes to costs of reliable alternatives to wind.

At the end of the day we are already paying for 30 years of neglect - and over the next decade or two we'll find out how much more we'll be paying indecision and dogma.

OK, but why pick on EVs? No wonder this argument sounds disingenuous in the context of this discussion.

(To clarify, I have no idea if we do or do not have an energy production capacity issue in the UK, however I am entertaining the idea for argument's sake)

I have not heard of a single piece of proposed legislation to deal with this supposed issue.

Where's the ban on building new data centres? On building new factories? On the sale of white goods and other electrical appliances? TVs, computers, mobile phones? Why are we not reducing the train service?

In fact, there are many angry posts on this thread about Insulate Britian protestors - should we not be treating them as our saviors, as opposed to annoying pests?

My point is that the argument regarding our energy production capacity seems to be applied only to the EV discussion.

 

[markjay]

...BYD, Geely & SAIC have now filed legal challenges to this decision. Appears they think it is unfair...

Interesting times ahead. If the Chinese can prove in court that they are not 'flooding' the EU with cars sold at below cost.... and if they can prove in court that the problem is that European workers are lazy, unproductive, opposition change, overpaid, etc etc..... Ouch.

 

[SpikyMikey]

My watch doesn’t need charging every day, and I don’t know how long it takes to charge as I just pop it on when I don’t need to wear it.

I’m sure most people can easily pop a watch on charge whilst they get ready in the morning - I’ve never given it a second thought.

I guess it’s a trade off in terms of size and weight (and cost!) - in effect if I was wearing your watch I’d be carrying around 5 times as much battery capacity as I need unnecessary

My watch 'charges up' when I wear it.

 

[ChipChop]

Interesting times ahead. If the Chinese can prove in court that they are not 'flooding' the EU with cars sold at below cost.... and if they can prove in court that the problem is that European workers are lazy, unproductive, opposition change, overpaid, etc etc..... Ouch.

The figures are clear. Chinas EV export drive began at the start of 2020's pandemic. 2020 -500,000 cars exported, end of 2023 4,5000,000 cars exported. How did they manage that? In a pandemic?
Every other nations (Japan, Germany, S Korea & the USA) exports fell dramatically from 2020 to 2022. China however controls supply chains and appears to have taken advantage of that.
Chinese EV manufacturers receive 9 times more state aid than the 38 OECD countries.
Chinese labour costs are a quarter of Western labour costs.
Power costs in China are cheap because they continue to burn coal which is a lot cheaper than the renewables mix many Western countries now use.
China currently has 65% market share for EV's.
The component mix used to be build EV's is even more China centric.
82% of EV battery packs, the most expensive EV component by far, are made in China, The anode and cathodes used in EV battery pack manufacturing are 87%-96% made in China, The chemicals used are battery packs are largely manufactured in China , notably the graphite, cobalt and lithium.

Bearing the above in mind do you think China has a leg to stand on?

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[markjay]

Bearing the above in mind do you think China has a leg to stand on?

If the EU courts rule that EU workers must not work more than 45 hours a week, can't be fired if they don't meet production targets, and must have minimum wages to entertain a certain standard of living, then No....

 

[markjay]

Funny, no - that the two coincide? The closest we've been to a blackout in decades and the increased use of EVs

But has the effect of EV charging on our electricity consumption been statistically isolated?

Because the 'increased blackouts' also coincide with increase in the population of the UK, increase in the number of home, increase in the number and size of datacentres, increase in computing power in business and homes, and possibly (I don't know) also increase in power consumption at factories, increased use of train, etc.

Or, if the effects of EV charging cannot be isolated, then at least can it be shown that the year-on-year increase in electricity consumption in the UK over past decades has taken-off significantly after the introduction of EVs?

But without some more work and research, blaming EVs it's a stab in the dark.

 

[markjay]

[WARNING: ARGUMENTATIVE POST]

So here's something for the EV-bashers sensible people who think that on balance and after careful consideration and looking at all the facts EVs are not a good idea. Difuse this:

How Much Electricity Does a Petrol Station Use? | Energy Solutions

According to industry sources, the average petrol station in the United Kingdom uses approximately 15,000 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity per month. This

www.energybrokers.co.uk

"According to industry sources, the average petrol station in the United Kingdom uses approximately 15,000 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity per month. This figure varies depending upon the size of the station and the number of pumps it has, but we can take an average of 5 kilowatt hours per pump per hour of operation. This means that if a petrol station has 4 pumps and is open for 10 hours a day, it will use around 200 kilowatt hours of electricity per day."

Why not start there? Let's shut down some of these power-hungry petrol stations to create more charging capacity available for EVs

 

[ChipChop]

If the EU courts rule that EU workers must not work more than 45 hours a week, can't be fired if they don't meet production targets, and must have minimum wages to entertain a certain standard of living, then No....

The EU is not going to abandon its practice of imposing a level playing field.

 

[markjay]

The EU is not going to abandon its implementation of a level playing field.

Indeed. The playing filed runs between two edges. There are TWO ways of making it 'level'..... fill-in on one side, or dig-out on the other. I know what the Chinese will say....

 

[SmartAmg]

[WARNING: ARGUMENTATIVE POST]

So here's something for the EV-bashers sensible people who think that on balance and after careful consideration and looking at all the facts EVs are not a good idea. Difuse this:

How Much Electricity Does a Petrol Station Use? | Energy Solutions

According to industry sources, the average petrol station in the United Kingdom uses approximately 15,000 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity per month. This

www.energybrokers.co.uk

"According to industry sources, the average petrol station in the United Kingdom uses approximately 15,000 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity per month. This figure varies depending upon the size of the station and the number of pumps it has, but we can take an average of 5 kilowatt hours per pump per hour of operation. This means that if a petrol station has 4 pumps and is open for 10 hours a day, it will use around 200 kilowatt hours of electricity per day."

Why not start there? Let's shut down some of these power-hungry petrol stations to create more charging capacity available for EVs

Waiting for the counter argument.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Power costs in China are cheap because they continue to burn coal which is a lot cheaper than the renewables mix many Western countries now use.

They are getting better slowly. In 2024 it was about 60 percent from coal and gas and getting better each year. In the same year we still got 35% of our electric from fossil fuels.

 

[ChipChop]

They are getting better slowly. In 2024 it was about 60 percent from coal and gas and getting better each year. In the same year we still got 35% of our electric from fossil fuels.

China looks after its own interests. They will always have coal power stations in place for energy security. All the G7 countries, except the UK, are looking to protect Western auto manufacturers by imposing tariffs on Chinese EV's. We should do the same.

 

[BTB 500]

Why not start there? Let's shut down some of these power-hungry petrol stations to create more charging capacity available for EVs

Waiting for the counter argument.

No problem

I would guess that a fairly negligible amount of power is used by actually dispensing fuel - most of the consumption will be in heating/aircon/lighting/freezers/microwaves/coffee machines/tills/ATMs/lottery terminals/etc. ... as per any other similar sized shop/cafe/retail outlet but with the addition of a car wash. Of course those are all things that EV drivers would potentially use as well, in fact there are often EVs parked at my local BP station (which doesn't have any chargers but does contain a 'Wild Bean Cafe' and an M&S). Do charging sites have screen wash etc. available, or tyre compressors, or other things that EVs would need if there were no fuel forecourts? Or the aforementioned car washes (remember, 'normal people' do use these )?

The other interesting thing mentioned previously is the amount of electricity allegedly used to produce a gallon of fuel ("according to one estimate" ...). I was thinking about this last night and of course you'd still need to extract, transport and refine crude even if there were no ICE vehicles. EVs (and many other things) require lubricants, coolants, plastics, etc. that are derived from crude or require chemicals that are. We'd also still need aviation fuel, marine bunkers (fuel for ships), heating oil, road surfaces, etc. Essentially the fractions that we currently use for road vehicles as gasoline and gasoil/diesel might just become waste products?

So I wonder how that "kWh per gallon of petrol" figure was derived when virtually all of the energy used relates to power consumption that would probably still exist even if there was no demand for petrol

 

[rf065]

China looks after its own interests. They will always have coal power stations in place for energy security.

And they're still building new ones, more than any other country in the world. They have at least 35 years worth of coal left, and ironically, everyone buys their EVs in the pretence that we're looking after the planet.

 

[SmartAmg]

No problem

I would guess that a fairly negligible amount of power is used by actually dispensing fuel - most of the consumption will be in heating/aircon/lighting/freezers/microwaves/coffee machines/tills/ATMs/lottery terminals/etc. ... as per any other similar sized shop/cafe/retail outlet but with the addition of a car wash. Of course those are all things that EV drivers would potentially use as well, in fact there are often EVs parked at my local BP station (which doesn't have any chargers but does contain a 'Wild Bean Cafe' and an M&S). Do charging sites have screen wash etc. available, or tyre compressors, or other things that EVs would need if there were no fuel forecourts? Or the aforementioned car washes (remember, 'normal people' do use these )?

The other interesting thing mentioned previously is the amount of electricity allegedly used to produce a gallon of fuel ("according to one estimate" ...). I was thinking about this last night and of course you'd still need to extract, transport and refine crude even if there were no ICE vehicles. EVs (and many other things) require lubricants, coolants, plastics, etc. that are derived from crude or require chemicals that are. We'd also still need aviation fuel, marine bunkers (fuel for ships), heating oil, road surfaces, etc. Essentially the fractions that we currently use for road vehicles as gasoline and gasoil/diesel might just become waste products?

So I wonder how that "kWh per gallon of petrol" figure was derived when virtually all of the energy used relates to power consumption that would probably still exist even if there was no demand for petrol

Good counter argument. Didn't understand a bloody word of it. But it looks impressive.

 

[BIGDOG]

And they're still building new ones, more than any other country in the world. They have at least 35 years worth of coal left, and ironically, everyone buys their EVs in the pretence that we're looking after the planet.

I’m not sure that everyone does that.

 

[SmartAmg]

And they're still building new ones, more than any other country in the world. They have at least 35 years worth of coal left, and ironically, everyone buys their EVs in the pretence that we're looking after the planet.

I didn't, I just fancied one. Nothing to do with saving the Planet. If it happens to help a bit, then fair enough.

 

[ALFAitalia]

And they're still building new ones, more than any other country in the world. They have at least 35 years worth of coal left, and ironically, everyone buys their EVs in the pretence that we're looking after the planet.

Which they are.....they would be using that same coal powered electricity to build ICE cars if they were not building EVs.....and long term that's much worse. Whichever way you look at it EVs produce lots less climate changing CO than ICE cars if you include everything (raw materials, construction, use and disposal).
But as said not everyone buys them with that in mind.