The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

but they’re competing with home charging at a tenth of the price and car parks which can easily undercut them.

And supermarkets that can offer (mostly slow) charging for free, as a loss leader to get people to visit.

 

[markjay]

How long can the companies that built and operate these sites continue with low usage/revenue (many EV owners also comment on how nice and empty sites are)?

In the news this week that Pod Point (mostly owned by EDF) are having problems due to low demand:

MSN

I think it's a chicken and egg situation.

Public charging prices are currently very high. In France, I typically paid 49c at a 350kW supercharger on the autoroute. In the UK it's around 79p. I don't know if France or the EU are subsiding electricity in France?

At any rate, as long as drivers can charge for considerably less elsewhere (at home, at work, or free chargers at retail parks etc) they will only use these public charging stations if they absolutely need to.

The proof is that the petrol and diesel pumps at the motorway services are usually quite busy - the fuel only cost a few pennies more, and so people are less likely to bend-over-backwards to avoid them.

 

[markjay]

True but if trackers were used there would be a big incentive for finding a way to move these from one vehicle to another!

Or just put them in a Faraday Cage.......

 

[Will]

I agree that it's not obvious how the technology can be implemented. ANPR cameras could have the undesirable result of traffic being diverted onto small unmonitored B-roads, and a mandatory GPS tracker (or other type of 'black box') will be open to manipulation by the criminaly-minded.

Criminals will always find a way to exploit something.

People have been siphoning fuel, driving off without paying, driving around with no insurance or road tax or whatever for long enough - that’s unfortunately human nature.

 

[markjay]

Would you rather EV fires were not reported at all? Kept a secret for the greater good of the energy transition.

If all car fires were reported in the press, then fine. But why report only some fires and not others?

 

[Will]

I'm assuming pay per mile would be set at a level to get reasonable income from lower mileage drivers too (as it would presumably replace road tax as well), so high mileage drivers would likely end up paying more than they do now.

ANPR covering a relatively small number of entry/exit points around a zone is different proposition to reliably covering all movement within a zone, let alone on all roads nationally.

Are current black boxes and phone apps secure and tamper proof enough to replace road tax?

These things aren't insurmountable, just potentially expensive. As would be the system to collect/process/bill ... major government IT projects like this don't have a great track record.

As said, there’s always going to be an element of criminality risk with whichever system is implemented.

Pay per mile will come, regardless of the means of propulsion and IMHO it’s a long time coming already.

 

[markjay]

And supermarkets that can offer (mostly slow) charging for free, as a loss leader to get people to visit.

My local Aldi does (or did - I haven't tried recently).

 

[Will]

The prevalence of sensationalist journalism is a given surely when the subject is justifications for/against the energy transition. A notion predicated on there being a climate emergency with mass extinction just around the corner. Doesn't get much more sensationalist that that imo.

It’s click bait for the hungry, simple as that. And you’ve taken the bait

 

[Will]

And supermarkets that can offer (mostly slow) charging for free, as a loss leader to get people to visit.

Same as Costco/Tesco with their cut price fuel?

Not sure if it’s loss making, but I can be certain that the pricing structure is based around footfall (same as the £1.50 hot dog and soda!)

 

[markjay]

I'm assuming pay per mile would be set at a level to get reasonable income from lower mileage drivers too (as it would presumably replace road tax as well), so high mileage drivers would likely end up paying more than they do now.

ANPR covering a relatively small number of entry/exit points around a zone is different proposition to reliably covering all movement within a zone, let alone on all roads nationally.

Are current black boxes and phone apps secure and tamper proof enough to replace road tax?

These things aren't insurmountable, just potentially expensive. As would be the system to collect/process/bill ... major government IT projects like this don't have a great track record.

An app on your phone can be problematic.

What if you forget to switch it off when you board a train... or worse, a plane?

 

[ChipChop]

If all car fires were reported in the press, then fine. But why report only some fires and not oothers?

Fires are dramatic events. Those caught on camera are reported, both ICE & EV.

 

[Will]

An app on your phone can be problematic.

What if you forget to switch it off when you board a train... or worse, a plane?

People were worried when public transport went cashless - eg Oyster cards. Do you remember when contactless replaced chip and pin (and that replaced ‘signatures’)

And who honestly uses a chequebook anymore?

Anxiety to change is common!

 

[Will]

Fires are dramatic events. Those caught on camera are reported ICE & EV.

Not true - there’s hundreds of ICE fires every month, and most are never reported.

Almost everyone has a smartphone these days with a camera. People just accept that fires happen - but sensationalism sells papers and clicks which make the press money!

 

[BTB 500]

We know that petrol stations make most of their profit on iimpulse buys, snacks and drinks: we see it every time we go in.

A more interesting question is how many petrol stations will be forced to close in 15 years time when EV's outnumber petrol and diesel - ie. when fuel consumption has MORE than halved, because higher mileage / commercial drivers have long switched to electric?

It's pretty common to see people in forecourt shops who aren't buying fuel. As mentioned I certainly see EVs stopped at my local BP (which has no chargers). So it's likely that well-sited forecourts would continue as now as handy convenience stores/cafes, and adding a few ultra rapid chargers would probably guarantee it.

But overall fuel forecourts have been closing steadily for decades - we all know ones that turned into car sales sites/ hand car washes/etc. The Shell station I used in Weybridge was knocked down and turned into flats.

IIRC there are roughly half the number now that there were in the 1990s.

 

[markjay]

There are a range of statistics out there but it seems EV Fires are already at least 10 times less likely than ICE fires. However if the cost of those fires in terms of firefighting, collateral damage and repairs was taken into account, then the comparison would at the very least narrow and that is perhaps why insurance costs for EV's are still higher than ICE's. When I was looking to change my car recently I compared insurance quotes for an ICE Golf and and EV Golf. The premium for the EV was typically 40 - 50% higher.

As with most concerns about EV's the issue will be resolved in time as battery technology improves and turns less incendiary.

I don't think that third party fire damage is the main reason for the higher premium for EV, because as you say, statistically EVs are overall on-par with ICE (and insurers are good at calculating risk), it's more likely to be the result of the requirement to replace the entire battery pack when battery damage is suspected after a crash.

 

[Will]

It's pretty common to see people in forecourt shops who aren't buying fuel. As mentioned I certainly see EVs stopped at my local BP (which has no chargers). So it's likely that well-sited forecourts would continue as now as handy convenience stores/cafes, and adding a few ultra rapid chargers would probably guarantee it.

But overall fuel forecourts have been closing steadily for decades - we all know ones that turned into car sales sites/ hand car washes/etc. The Shell station I used in Weybridge was knocked down and turned into flats.

IIRC there are roughly half the number now that there were in the 1990s.

Maybe cars use less fuel and people are covering fewer miles than they did pre-1990s too?

But yes - I drove past a BP charging-only site the other day, and there was a petrol/hybrid vehicle using the tyre pump and a Mercedes taxi Vito thing parked up (presumably shopping, it was an older one and I don’t think EV)

 

[Will]

I also wonder which Shell that was - there’s quite a few nearby and I can think of at least two in Weybridge still now?

 

[ALFAitalia]

How long can the companies that built and operate these sites continue with low usage/revenue (many EV owners also comment on how nice and empty sites are)?

In the news this week that Pod Point (mostly owned by EDF) are having problems due to low demand:

MSN

Lol....if you anti EV lot are not moaning about lack of charging facilties and waiting times, it's that they are empty and not utilised enough!

 

[ChipChop]

People were worried when public transport went cashless - eg Oyster cards. Do you remember when contactless replaced chip and pin (and that replaced ‘signatures’)

And who honestly uses a chequebook anymore?

Anxiety to change is common!

Got to admire your repeated posts positioning reluctance to change as a weakness.

 

[markjay]

Does anyone know of a multi-charger site in the UK that isn't built next to a petrol station, and has a shop?

I believe that the shop came about because you had to go into the booth to pay the attendant.

(Pay-at-pump has been around for 20 years now, long before mobile phones app where invented, but it never did seem to catch-on big time - drivers still prefer to pay at the shop)

In the South of Italy there are petrol stations that are not self-service, and you pay the attendant who fills up your car - there's no shop (though they do sell engine oil and fuel additives etc).

And in Switzerland there are unattended petrol stations (pay-at-pump with credit card) - again, no shop.

My guess is that the petrol station shops will go. They will not survive electrification. Motorway Service will still have a rest and shopping area, obviously, but the traditional petrol station shop will go once drivers no longer need to walk in and pay for fuel.