The EV fact thread

[markjay]

I wonder if there'll always be an advantage in lower costs for those charging at home (i.e even when all the lamp posts have chargers and the 1/2 the population without their own parking can charge overnight too). If so that would be very annoying for all those without off street parking... 2 tier car ownership costs. I imagine it would be a very positive result for the likes of Reform et al to take advantage of.

Fair point. I live in a block if flats in central London and park in the street. While lamppost changing is very convenient, it's anything but cheap. I can see why some people in my area prefer to run an extension cord to the street... though this only works if you live on the ground floor and catch the parking spot opposite your window.

I suspect that the smart home chargers will eventually know how to charge the full 20% of VAT, but even so people will find ways around it.

Not sure how Reform are linked to any of this, but as I said, it's a fair point, ultimately people with a drive will be able to charge their cars for less.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I wonder if there'll always be an advantage in lower costs for those charging at home (i.e even when all the lamp posts have chargers and the 1/2 the population without their own parking can charge overnight too). If so that would be very annoying for all those without off street parking... 2 tier car ownership costs. I imagine it would be a very positive result for the likes of Reform et al to take advantage of.

I suspect that charging at home will remain less expensive than using public charging, but the gap will be smaller than it is today between charging at home and using slower public charging facilities.

In part because increases in VAT will increase the cost of charging at home, and in part because public charging in residential areas will likely be less expensive than in towns and major routes.

Those chargers will have much smaller one-time costs and so depreciation of the up-front investment will have a smaller influence on the charging tariff paid by consumers.

However I suspect charging at home will always remain less expensive for those who can for two reasons. Firstly because there’s less likely to be a middle-man between the supply and the consumer.

Secondly the remains the potential for charging using solar or wind locally in the home. I’m sure that some form of tax could be introduced to offset this but there would likely be some residual benefit.

 

[Will]

I think the cost of public charging will come down on a supply/demand basis as the infrastructure develops.

The cost of enabling the public charging facilities needs to be recovered (cables and the charging points/stalls themselves etc) - but over time I suspect once those costs have been amortised the rates could reflect that.

Can you imagine how much petrol would cost if the filling station networks were being built from scratch? Tanks, pumps, forecourts etc.

It’s often said that retailers make little profit on the fuel that is sold. Perhaps once the initial costs of installing the hardware have settled down a similar model could follow.

 

[markjay]

..The cost of enabling the public charging facilities needs to be recovered (cables and the charging points/stalls themselves etc)...

True, but as luck would have it, petrol and Diesel are heavily taxed, and so the starting point in terms of 'cost-per-mile' is already very high, making it easier for commercial organisations to sell electricity from public chargers at higher prices to recoup the investment.

However, this new equation effectively sees tax revenues financing the public charging infrastructure, I.e. as we have more EVs, the government will be collecting less fuel duty, with the money now going to the commercial organisations that invested in the public charging infrastructure.

This will pose an issue for the government, because replacing lost revenue by taxing electricity for cars on top of the already-high cost of public chargers electricity to consumers, will make running an EV not viable for those who can't charge at home.

I suspect that in the long term the only possible solution is a dynamic tax-by-mile system, but I cam see many more cameras vandalised before we get there....

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I wonder if there'll always be an advantage in lower costs for those charging at home (i.e even when all the lamp posts have chargers and the 1/2 the population without their own parking can charge overnight too). If so that would be very annoying for all those without off street parking... 2 tier car ownership costs. I imagine it would be a very positive result for the likes of Reform et al to take advantage of.

You're right, of course, for a reason that you haven't considered.

Commercial charging is expensive only because of the initial set up / installation cost, and then the higher tax rate (ie 20% VAT. At heart, delivering energy to a charger is cheaper than shipping oil thousands of miles, refining it and then trucking it to underground tanks. Once set up, competition will force the providers to reduce their prices. (See the already empty charger stations around the country)

Two tier ownership costs for those without off street parking? Yes, my 27 year old daughter recognises this as she searches for a tiny 2 bed flat in Central London for £4,000 a month. But will the Government do anything for her to make her life easier? No, they already put extra taxes on parking and driving locally while taxing her income at highest rate.

Re that quote, it's half of all households that don't have access to off street parking. So she's one of them. As are the seven other households who live in the same four storey house. So it's a misleading stat. None of her eight households want to run a car in central London, it's not practical. Sadiq wants them to use buses, tubes and taxis.

Whereas my son owns in a terraced house with no access to off street parking, but his wife can charge at work, he could charge at mine, and he could just run a cable out to the car, like his neighbours, when he can park outside the house (probably just once a week but still), and they can both charge at the local supermarkets and at their sports club.

How busy are those motorway charger points this morning? Well here's Moto, down at Exeter: 36 out of 38 chargers are not being used.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I think the cost of public charging will come down on a supply/demand basis as the infrastructure develops.

The cost of enabling the public charging facilities needs to be recovered (cables and the charging points/stalls themselves etc) - but over time I suspect once those costs have been amortised the rates could reflect that.

Can you imagine how much petrol would cost if the filling station networks were being built from scratch? Tanks, pumps, forecourts etc.

It’s often said that retailers make little profit on the fuel that is sold. Perhaps once the initial costs of installing the hardware have settled down a similar model could follow.

We know that petrol stations make most of their profit on iimpulse buys, snacks and drinks: we see it every time we go in.

A more interesting question is how many petrol stations will be forced to close in 15 years time when EV's outnumber petrol and diesel - ie. when fuel consumption has MORE than halved, because higher mileage / commercial drivers have long switched to electric?

 

[markjay]

...Commercial charging is expensive only because of the initial set up / installation cost, and then the higher tax rate (ie 20% VAT. At heart, delivering energy to a charger is cheaper than shipping oil thousands of miles, refining it and then trucking it to underground tanks. Once set up, competition will force the providers to reduce their prices. (See the already empty charger stations around the country)..

Agreed, though it might be a little more complicated than that. The charging network will need to be periodically upgraded, not just in term of capacity and speed, but also to implement new technologies and new standards as they emerge and the tech evolves.

I do foresee rapid changes in this industry. And, battery longevity will be a Red Herring if cars are replaced as the tech becomes obsolete as opposed to what happens now, i.e. cars are generally being replaced when the cost of repairs exceed the car's value.

This will mean that second hand buyers will be in a position where they never had it better, while those buying new will need to be prepared to shoulder massive and steep depreciation.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Agreed, though it might be a little more complicated than that. The charging network will need to be periodically upgraded, not just in term of capacity and speed, but also to implement new technologies and new standards as they emerge and the tech evolves.

I do foresee rapid changes in this industry. And, battery longevity will be a Red Herring if cars are replaced as the tech becomes obsolete as opposed to what happens now, i.e. cars are generally being replaced when the cost of repairs exceed the car's value.

This will mean that second hand buyers will be in a position where they never had it better, while those buying new will need to be prepared to shoulder massive and steep depreciation.

When did buying new NOT incur massive and steep depreciation?

Part of why i deliberately drive "elderly" now, is the result of running fleets of lovely new cars for my firms, where first three year depreciation was 30-50% on expensive cars, where users still seemed to have some significant maintenance costs, despite doing below average mileages.

Is a 7 year old BMW I3 to be scrapped as its range is only 160 miles, in a country where half the drivers don't do that many miles in a week? My local vicar just plugs her's in every time she gets home.

 

[Will]

True, but as luck would have it, petrol and Diesel are heavily taxed, and so the starting point in terms of 'cost-per-mile' is already very high, making it easier for commercial organisations to sell electricity from public chargers at higher prices to recoup the investment.

However, this new equation effectively sees tax revenues financing the public charging infrastructure, I.e. as we have more EVs, the government will be collecting less fuel duty, with the money now going to the commercial organisations that invested in the public charging infrastructure.

This will pose an issue for the government, because replacing lost revenue by taxing electricity for cars on top of the already-high cost of public chargers electricity to consumers, will make running an EV not viable for those who can't charge at home.

I suspect that in the long term the only possible solution is a dynamic tax-by-mile system, but I cam see many more cameras vandalised before we get there....

Yes - long term government strategy for taxation of vehicles is complex and remains to be determined.

I would support pay per mile - it’s the fairest way I can think of. People who drive more or use vehicles at peak time should pay more than those who only use vehicles occasionally.

 

[Will]

We know that petrol stations make most of their profit on iimpulse buys, snacks and drinks: we see it every time we go in.

A more interesting question is how many petrol stations will be forced to close in 15 years time when EV's outnumber petrol and diesel - ie. when fuel consumption has MORE than halved, because higher mileage / commercial drivers have long switched to electric?

It’s a declining industry for sure, same as the amount of old pubs that have closed their doors and have been turned into Tesco Metro or Sainsbury’s Local stores. In fact, I can think of several filling stations that have closed long before EVs were a consideration.

The planet existed before petrol stations were a thing and I’m sure will cope fine as they start to change.

 

[Will]

Agreed, though it might be a little more complicated than that. The charging network will need to be periodically upgraded, not just in term of capacity and speed, but also to implement new technologies and new standards as they emerge and the tech evolves.

I do foresee rapid changes in this industry. And, battery longevity will be a Red Herring if cars are replaced as the tech becomes obsolete as opposed to what happens now, i.e. cars are generally being replaced when the cost of repairs exceed the car's value.

This will mean that second hand buyers will be in a position where they never had it better, while those buying new will need to be prepared to shoulder massive and steep depreciation.

I think battery longevity anxiety is almost talked about as much by non-EV users as range anxiety.

Sure it’s a thing but I’d never have bought a 911 if I’d worried myself at night over engine failure and what have you. Or run older cars out of warranty for the past 20+ years.

Doom and gloom is seemingly one of the British public’s favourite discussion points after house prices and weather

 

[markjay]

..I would support pay per mile - it’s the fairest way I can think of. People who drive more or use vehicles at peak time should pay more than those who only use vehicles occasionally.

Agreed, though, as said, we'll need to overcome the camera vandalists and the conspiracy theorists first.....

 

[Will]

Agreed, though, as said, we'll need to overcome the camera vandalists and the conspiracy theorists first.....

Haven’t seen so much noise on social media about ULEZ anymore.

Change takes time for people to get their heads around.

 

[ChipChop]

A bad start to the year for this motorist. Did the solenoid that controls the fart noise overheat i wonder?

Police confirm 'no criminality' after Tesla car fire in Kilmarnock

A black Tesla was found on alight outside the Beijing Banquet just off Queen's Drive on Saturday evening.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

 

[BIGDOG]

A bad start to the year for this motorist. Did the solenoid that controls the fart noise overheat i wonder?

View attachment 167001

Police confirm 'no criminality' after Tesla car fire in Kilmarnock

A black Tesla was found on alight outside the Beijing Banquet just off Queen's Drive on Saturday evening.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

Maybe a boring old fart torched it?

 

[Will]

A bad start to the year for this motorist. Did the solenoid that controls the fart noise overheat i wonder?

View attachment 167001

Police confirm 'no criminality' after Tesla car fire in Kilmarnock

A black Tesla was found on alight outside the Beijing Banquet just off Queen's Drive on Saturday evening.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

Had this thread suddenly gone back in time or something?

 

[ChipChop]

Had this thread suddenly gone back in time or something?

No Teslas are still catching fire at random it seems. Sad fact. Call it a public service anouncement for the Tesla owners on this Mercedes forum. One positive the Scottish fire brigade acted swiftly and prevented the fire spreading to the battery pack.

 

[ChipChop]

Maybe a boring old fart torched it?

Thanks for the input Dr Feelgood or is it LewyBoy?

 

[Will]

Ironically I actually had to take a diversion yesterday whilst out driving an electric car, due to a fire bridgade vehicle blocking the road I was travelling down, whilst they were tackling a fire.

It wasn’t a Tesla though. Perhaps I should have stopped and taken a picture

I’m guessing you’ve looked at the stats for vehicle fires though - quite dangerous travelling in a ICE powered vehicle when you think about it

 

[ChipChop]

Ironically I actually had to take a diversion yesterday whilst out driving an electric car, due to a fire bridgade vehicle blocking the road I was travelling down, whilst they were tackling a fire.

It wasn’t a Tesla though. Perhaps I should have stopped and taken a picture

I’m guessing you’ve looked at the stats for vehicle fires though - quite dangerous travelling in a ICE powered vehicle when you think about it

Would you rather EV fires were not reported at all? Kept a secret for the greater good of the energy transition.