Toll Crossings -The impact on ?

[brucemillar]

Folks

A great thread on the 'new' Forth Road Bridge crossing in Scotland, and a comment by DRUK about the fact no crossing in Scotland is charged, got me thinking.

I am regular business & social user of the QE2 - Dartford Crossing in Kent. I have been for many years and for many years have witnessed & suffered thru the massive bottleneck impact it 'appears' to have on the M25 for miles in each direction.

A couple of years ago the Government announced it would not (as promised) scrap charging of the Dartford Crossing, but would instead implement a 'new' toll both free ANPR controlled system of charging that the Motorist would fund by way of a hefty increase in tolls. The stated aim of Government in this 'new' system and the promised end result of 'free flowing traffic' at the crossing has never materialised, with many (me included) complaining that the traffic congestion has got worse. Last week the government announced that up to 1.5 million foreign drivers have failed to pay the tolls and will never be made to do so. (Interestingly the scheme is run by the French) While more and more UK resident drivers are being charged the increased rate and pursued the courts for non-payment.

The old system used Toll booths with human operated barriers and automated barriers (that did not give change) The booths did not cater for LHD vehicles ensuring the drivers had to swap seats or climb out the car and walk around to pay.

The 'new' system relies on ANPR with the tool payable via telephone, text, email, or a prepayment banking scheme that takes the money out your account. This is supposed to offer 'discounts' to make it more attractive, but the discounts still do not get you anywhere near the old charges.

The biggest issue I have is that the promised improvements to traffic flow have simply not happened. Indeed Northbound most argue, it has got significantly worse. Most days will see ques tailing back for two/three miles and taking me an average 45 minutes to cross.

Where does all the toll money go?
Can anybody point to something that it has been used for, apart from a self fulfilling scheme to gather more toll money?

Talks on a new crossing near Gravesend (what an appropriate name) have gone on for longer than it has taken the Scots to design & build their new toll free crossing that is a masterpiece of engineering.

 

[GeeJayW]

The new Mersey crossing will use APNR to charge tolls, which has now also been applied to the old Runcorn bridge (which used to be free). So unless we drive around via Warrington, crossing from Merseyside to Cheshire and vice versa will incur toll charges.

Local residents can register for toll-free use the Runcorn crossings, everyone else that has a legally registered vehicle will have to pay a toll. Unlikely that they will be able to enforce payment for foreign or unregistered vehicles. What a crock!

 

[brucemillar]

One of the issues with the Dartford crossing, is the system to ensure correct charges appears broken. As always with government, they are in denial. Issuing weekly statements saying that waiting times have improved in the face of massive queues of traffic behind them.

I am now on 'miss charge' No6 where I have been written to telling me that I used the crossing when I have not or, I have not paid, when I have. What I did find, is that they do NOT use a live DVLA database with their ANPR. They pay for a quarterly extract of the data. So if you have recently changed your registration (I did) you will most likely get a ticket (I did). Staggering! Or is it?

 

[markjay]

Bizarrely, a few years ago when the government announced that they will not be scrapping the Dartford crossing charge as originally promised, the official argument at the time was that 'Dartford had the worst air quality around the M25'.

Well, (a) charging to reduce traffic makes sense if there's an alternative route, but in this case lorries are unlikely to go around the M25 clockwise to avoid yhe charge, and (b) removal of the charging system will see traffic flowing quicker and pollution reduced.

 

[GeeJayW]

Systems like this are never properly joined up and if they were, there would be a social media sh!t storm about data protection and 'big brother'.

In the end, as long as they can collect enough toll money (including fines for non payments) to meet their financial targets, the operators (government) will remain disinterested in making the systems fair and accurate. These crossings are just cash cows for the operators.

For one of the tunnels in Virginia that I drove through for a while, tolls were charged until the capital investment has been recouped, at which point the toll booths were ripped out. Maintenance was paid for from the public purse. At the time I was told this was typical in the US, but I don't know for sure. I think this is a better approach.

I also think that if UK tolls are going full scale ANPR, then Foreign registered trucks and cars should pay a toll charge when they come ashore into the UK or pay an exit fee when they leave.

 

[brucemillar]

I also think that if UK tolls are going full scale ANPR, then Foreign registered trucks and cars should pay a toll charge when they come ashore into the UK or pay an exit fee when they leave.

If we are to be charged then we must all be charged. Otherwise the system loses all credibility. It has been suggested that all foreign trucks should be routed off the motorway and made to pay on the spot. The simple truth is that these drivers/companies know that they do not need to pay.

It is also now evident that scheme is jinxed with number cloning being rife, among many other clever workarounds.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

English toll revenues go to the Treasury

English toll road revenues go to the Treasury where they "theoretically" fund future road investment. The Dart charge raises something in excess of £150 million.

Dartford Crossing Dart charge raises £161 million

There are no toll road revenues in Scotland. Labour Chancellors were, and will continue to be, Scottish.

 

[TheFoX]

Cloning plates is just way too easy. The whole system of ANPR is thrawt with danger.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Why has removing the tolls resulted in more congestion?

Edit:

Looked it up, the number of lanes has been reduced which has caused a pinch-point.

Looking at the first photo in this article, what a complete misery of a life to have to use this road on an anywhere near regular basis.

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/news/scrapping-booths-has-made-no-46586/

 

[brucemillar]

..... and another point here. The "system" works on a the basis of 'guilt until proved innocent' So be aware please. The onus is on you to prove your innocence and not them to prove you guilt. In the cases I mentioned with myself they are all over you and not polite or helpful. "it must have been you as we have your registration Sir" "You need to get us a notice from the DVLA to show us that your changed your Reg Sir" The Sir is more of a sneer (and I am not making this up).

 

[Conquistador]

Iirc it's managed by Sanef, the same company as France's toll roads.

2015-16 income for the crossing was £161.6m made up of £76.7 million from Dart Charge accounts, £31.3 million from those without Dart Charge accounts and just £358,000 from abnormal loads. That leaves £53.1 million raised from enforcement. One third!

Despite it now being 'free-flowing', traffic is backed up more often than not going northbound especially if the there's a few tankers being escorted through the left bore.

I bet those small yellow average speed cameras perched on the gantries on the approach at both ends catch a fair few people out too.

 

[brucemillar]

Now here is a strange thing. With no toll booths the traffic still visibly slows, presumably in anticipation of a toll booth? This causes a dramatic phantom queuing effect further back as motorists are confronted with brake lights as they crest the bridge or the M25 as it drops towards the tunnel.

The "Escorted Fuel Convoys" cause mayhem as the lorries are forced across queuing traffic lanes into a holding area on the left to await their convoy and escorts. The lights are then turned to red for traffic to allow the convoy back into the main drag. This happens several times each hour.

 

[Druk]

Dartford was never my problem. It was the squillions the Welsh charge to get into their country but not to get out.

Welcome to Wales eh?

 

[Meldrew2]

Dartford was never my problem. It was the squillions the Welsh charge to get into their country but not to get out.

Welcome to Wales eh?

Being "Devil's Advocate" for a moment, is there any real problem in paying double toll on half your return journey?

I can't see many people crossing in an eastbound direction not also crossing westbound - otherwise Wales will gradually empty? At least there is no need to stop at the toll booth more than 50% of the time.

 

[GeeJayW]

Dartford was never my problem. It was the squillions the Welsh charge to get into their country but not to get out.

Welcome to Wales eh?

When the passport/immigration booths go in, things will slow down a mite I guess...

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Dartford was never my problem. It was the squillions the Welsh charge to get into their country but not to get out.

Welcome to Wales eh?

Ahem...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/21/severn-crossings-tolls-to-be-scrapped-next-year

It used to be said that you paid on entry and then all the rides were free.

 

[Alex225]

What staggers me about the Dartford toll is simply the lack of signage. I'm 35 years old, I'm a techy type and of a generation that has grown up "Googling" things and using the internet.

The signs for the Dartford toll pre-assume people's knowledge with the odd sign here and there that just tells you to go look up Dart Toll. If my grand parents or mum even used the Dartford toll they'd be fined, plain and simple.

The other thing that I think is a p!$$ take is how if you set up an account you have to have a minimum of £10 on the account. How many millions do they have accruing interest because they force people to part with a tenner yet they use the crossing rarely?

Just another part of the driving system that pulls the motorists pants right down!

 

[brucemillar]

What staggers me about the Dartford toll is simply the lack of signage. I'm 35 years old, I'm a techy type and of a generation that has grown up "Googling" things and using the internet.

The signs for the Dartford toll pre-assume people's knowledge with the odd sign here and there that just tells you to go look up Dart Toll. If my grand parents or mum even used the Dartford toll they'd be fined, plain and simple.

The other thing that I think is a p!$$ take is how if you set up an account you have to have a minimum of £10 on the account. How many millions do they have accruing interest because they force people to part with a tenner yet they use the crossing rarely?






Just another part of the driving system that pulls the motorists pants right down!

......and as soon as you drop below that £10.00 minimum balance you have to have a DD to top it up by £10

 

[Chrishazle]

My beef is also with the Dart Charge account - minimum start/auto top-up balance £10, so you open the account with £10, cross once - and that drops your balance below £10 so they take another £10 from your card. Nett result is an interest free loan of £10 or more per account - and how many Dart Charge accounts are there?? Bet the "loan" totals a million or three!!

 

[markjay]

When the passport/immigration booths go in, things will slow down a mite I guess...

Are you referring to this....:

On a serious note, I expect nothing will change and the passport control for the crossing will remain on the French side? It would be inefficient to allow everyone to cross from France into the UK only to reject those that are not eligible to enter and then ferry them back across the channel to France?