Unbelievable !!!

[Darrell]

Never ridden a bike in the Capital. Have ridden in traffic in other places though and only thing i have ever noticed is the eggy smell of catalytic converters and the niff of petrol from classic cars.

Maybe it’s not London that needs the ULEZ then!!

 

[markjay]

I used to repair PCs when I was younger. Opening a PC in any office in Central London was a nightmare, the power supply fans were blocked solid with black sooth. You needed to take it somewhere open and empty a can of compressed air into it downwind. Air conditioned offices faired a bit better, but not many offices had aircon back then. I suppose the Route Maters and the LTI cabs had a lot to do with it. Away from Central London, you'd find some grey dust accumulation over time, but nothing like ash bomb that awaited you inside the Central London PCs. I wonder how many people's lungs looked like that on the inside? But things have thankfully improved since.

 

[Dryce]

You can find out before you leave home.

That obligation seems to be the disproportionate way of all things now. To many odd restrictions and rules.

If you try using Google to route to a location in London it doesn't warn you about the existing small ULEZ as far as I can tell. And if you haven't enncountered the concept before (and many from outside London won't have) then by the time you are encountering the signs on approach it's a bit late to decipher the consequences.

I would argue - having become aware of the enlarged ULEZ in London that its's presented in a more confusing way than it should.

Fine once you're a regular - but I can see people getting caught out - particularly after October 2021.

 

[Dryce]

I used to repair PCs when I was younger. Opening a PC in any office in Central London was a nightmare, the power supply fans were blocked solid with black sooth. You needed to take it somewhere open and empty a can of compressed air into it downwind. Air conditioned offices faired a bit better, but not many offices had aircon back then. I suppose the Route Maters and the LTI cabs had a lot to do with it. Away from Central London, you'd find some grey dust accumulation over time, but nothing like ash bomb that awaited you inside the Central London PCs. I wonder how many people's lungs looked like that on the inside? But things have thankfully improved since

I think you'll find that smoking was probably the main culprit back in the day.

 

[markjay]

I think you'll find that smoking was probably the main culprit back in the day.

Possibly, I don't think that people working in Central London were smoking more that those working in more remote areas though? The worst offenders were offices located near Victoria train station, BTW.

 

[markjay]

..Fine once you're a regular - but I can see people getting caught out - particularly after October 2021.

So sending-out the letters makes sense then?

 

[Dryce]

So sending-out the letters makes sense then?

Possibly.

I think they are covering themselves. The extended ULEZ is quite extensive and there will be people - even after the letters are sent out - with older cars - who will get caught out. Those who maybe visit London once or twice a year by car - and would probably dodge the congestion zone and current ULEZ because they're visiting the outer areas of the city.

So my cynical view is that the intended beneficiary of the letters are the instigators - rather than the recipients. The extended ULEZ is large and they don't want a backlash.

I think if London thinks it has to have such an extensive ULEZ then they need to ban all new building of offices and homes and start to reduce their population density. Government and institutions should start to actively move offices and staff out of the city.

 

[Deleted member 159894]

Possibly.

I think they are covering themselves. The extended ULEZ is quite extensive and there will be people - even after the letters are sent out - with older cars - who will get caught out. Those who maybe visit London once or twice a year by car - and would probably dodge the congestion zone and current ULEZ because they're visiting the outer areas of the city.

So my cynical view is that the intended beneficiary of the letters are the instigators - rather than the recipients. The ULEZ is large and they don't want a backlash.

I think if London thinks it has to have such an extensive ULEZ then they need to ban all new building of offices and homes and start to reduce their population density. Government and institutions should start to actively move offices and staff out of the city.

The ‘rona and WFH have combined to get the ball rolling.

 

[SW18]

Always find it odd that people living in one of the biggest cities on earth complain about pollution when they live there to afford themselves a better standard of living, presumiably so they can consume more stuff ad infinitum.

I’m not sure why living in cities = consuming more stuff?! I live in a city because it’s fun, dynamic and engaging. Not to satisfy my need to consume endlessly.

That said, I do very much agree on the point about living somewhere and then complaining about it. You have to take the rough with the smooth and it’s illogical to live somewhere and then moan about it.

But, in the case of NOx pollution, there are to my mind a couple of factors at work:
- Understanding of just how harmfully NOx can impact health has only recently grown clear
- The switch to diesel was disastrous: favourable tax ensured many more people bought diesels and then dieselgate led to increased NOx emissions from all the cars not achieving the manufacturers’ claimed levels (some were 10x over in Which? magazine tests).
- NOx in London is over 50% from vehicles and is concentrated around roads: the remainder is emitted more evenly and is less likely to exceed safety levels.

Therefore there was an obvious case to do something about it. The central London ULEZ has been very successful in reducing NOx so it was logical to extend it further. It may well go to the city limits in time, like the LEZ.

Mayoral candidates who campaigned against the expanded ULEZ did badly, highlighting the strength of support for the new measures. I hear very little moaning about it here, as there was enough notice to allow drivers to plan their car purchases around it.

 

[markjay]

...I think if London thinks it has to have such an extensive ULEZ then they need to ban all new building of offices and homes and start to reduce their population density. Government and institutions should start to actively move offices and staff out of the city.

COVID achieved some of that. Most offices never resumed full office work for everyone. And about 10% of our customers closed down their London offices permanently and are planning to remain 100% home working. I don't see the Underground, trains, and busses ever going back to the rush-hour madness as it was before.

 

[SW18]

COVID achieved some of that. Most offices never resumed full office work for everyone. And about 10% of our customers closed down their London offices permanently and are planning to remain 100% home working. I don't see the Underground, trains, and busses ever going back to the rush-hour madness as it was before.

...which will generally be a good thing, though TfL will have to find some other way to refill its coffers in the face of lower traveller numbers and lower receipts.

 

[markjay]

...which will generally be a good thing, though TfL will have to find some other way to refill its coffers in the face of lower traveller numbers and lower receipts.

They already have.

Since last year, the CC has gone up to £15, and it's now 7 days, from 7am to 10pm.

So the price went up by 50%, and the catchment time window went up by 100%.

 

[ChipChop]

I’m not sure why living in cities = consuming more stuff?! I live in a city because it’s fun, dynamic and engaging. Not to satisfy my need to consume endlessly.

That said, I do very much agree on the point about living somewhere and then complaining about it. You have to take the rough with the smooth and it’s illogical to live somewhere and then moan about it.

But, in the case of NOx pollution, there are to my mind a couple of factors at work:
- Understanding of just how harmfully NOx can impact health has only recently grown clear
- The switch to diesel was disastrous: favourable tax ensured many more people bought diesels and then dieselgate led to increased NOx emissions from all the cars not achieving the manufacturers’ claimed levels (some were 10x over in Which? magazine tests).
- NOx in London is over 50% from vehicles and is concentrated around roads: the remainder is emitted more evenly and is less likely to exceed safety levels.

Therefore there was an obvious case to do something about it. The central London ULEZ has been very successful in reducing NOx so it was logical to extend it further. It may well go to the city limits in time, like the LEZ.

Mayoral candidates who campaigned against the expanded ULEZ did badly, highlighting the strength of support for the new measures. I hear very little moaning about it here, as there was enough notice to allow drivers to plan their car purchases around it.

Many starting a career move to London to earn a better salary/ prospects. Then they go on to spend that salary. I suppose some will save instead of spend (consume) but i would imagine they are in the minority.

To my mind the recent alarm over NOx and to a lesser degree particulate matter (PM) is an existential threat. Another one to add to the list of things to be afraid that may or may not harm us in modern society. Few if any death certificates of people who have died of heart/ lung disease or a stroke will have the person died of NOx poisioning or died of particulate matter poisoning.

Instead researchers have claimed NOx and PM can, not does, contribute to premature death. Like smoking cigarettes. Some choose to stop smoking to improve their life expectancy. The equivalent for the London NOx/PM issue is to move away from that environment for the good of your health. Take personal responsibility for your own health.

The EU's concious decision to base emissions tests in a laboratory not in real driving conditions seems a bizarre way to create a set of legally binding emissions standards. Designed to fail imho when someone suddenly tests what is actually being emitted. Just in time for the big push towards electrification. Welcome to Clownworld.

 

[merc estate]

So lets look at this, of the Worst 25 city's in the world China has 23 of them. But who's telling them to pack it in, as if they give a s**t. Money talks bulls**t walks, and all they want is your money.

 

[markjay]

Many starting a career move to London to earn a better salary/ prospects. Then they go on to spend that salary. I suppose some will save instead of spend (consume) but i would imagine they are in the minority.

To my mind the recent alarm over NOx and to a lesser degree particulate matter (PM) is an existential threat. Another one to add to the list of things to be afraid that may or may not harm us in modern society. Few if any death certificates of people who have died of heart/ lung disease or a stroke will have the person died of NOx poisioning or died of particulate matter poisoning.

Instead researchers have claimed NOx and PM can, not does, contribute to premature death. Like smoking cigarettes. Some choose to stop smoking to improve their life expectancy. The equivalent for the London NOx/PM issue is to move away from that environment for the good of your health. Take personal responsibility for your own health.

The EU's concious decision to base emissions tests in a laboratory not in real driving conditions seems a bizarre way to create a set of legally binding emissions standards. Designed to fail imho when someone suddenly tests what is actually being emitted. Just in time for the big push towards electrification. Welcome to Clownworld.

And similarly, we can abolish the law that prohibits smoking in workplaces, and tell people who don't want to become passive smokers that they can simply find employment elsewhere where there are non-smokers.

 

[markjay]

So lets look at this, of the Worst 25 city's in the world China has 23 of them. But who's telling them to pack it in, as if they give a s**t. Money talks bulls**t walks, and all they want is your money.

Aa per previous posts, we should differentiate between short-term and long-term goals.

The short-term goal is to improve air quality in the UK's city centres. Which is what ULEZ and similar schemes do, and do well. And, Mayors of UK cities are only responsible for the wellbeing of their own cities' residents, not for the health of those living in Chinese cities or elsewhere around the world.

The long-term goal is to save the planet... and indeed we won't be able to achieve that without help from evey country, China included.

 

[SW18]

Many starting a career move to London to earn a better salary/ prospects. Then they go on to spend that salary. I suppose some will save instead of spend (consume) but i would imagine they are in the minority.

To my mind the recent alarm over NOx and to a lesser degree particulate matter (PM) is an existential threat. Another one to add to the list of things to be afraid that may or may not harm us in modern society. Few if any death certificates of people who have died of heart/ lung disease or a stroke will have the person died of NOx poisioning or died of particulate matter poisoning.

Instead researchers have claimed NOx and PM can, not does, contribute to premature death. Like smoking cigarettes. Some choose to stop smoking to improve their life expectancy. The equivalent for the London NOx/PM issue is to move away from that environment for the good of your health. Take personal responsibility for your own health.

The EU's concious decision to base emissions tests in a laboratory not in real driving conditions seems a bizarre way to create a set of legally binding emissions standards. Designed to fail imho when someone suddenly tests what is actually being emitted. Just in time for the big push towards electrification. Welcome to Clownworld.

On the personal responsibility point, there is clearly a balance to be struck in a civilised society. Not just personal responsibility but also taking responsibility for others and their health. We’re not all slaves to selfish Trumpian ideology. If we had always thought that way we may still not have a sewer system!

There is indeed a proven link between elevated NOx and premature deaths, just as there is with cigarettes. Established via sound and peer-reviewed methodologies. Imperial College is a prominent contributor to the science on this. But perhaps their work should be discounted as they are in the pay of the Bill Gates illuminati?

On the past EU emissions tests standards, I couldn’t agree more! Presumably the German auto industry lobbied hard for those tests so as to further their own interests? Regardless of whether they did, or did not, it certainly worked out well for them for a good while.

 

[BoristheBounce]

You can find out before you leave home.

You can Darrell, if you know you are going to enter one of these zones.

I live up North and have never been in one of these zones and have no idea where they are, I don't need to generally and have no wish to more is the point.

Its a bit like saying to someone living in London, why didn't you know there is a charge to go through the Tyne Tunnel?

The first time I went over the Dartford crossing to the Channel Tunnel I didn't realise there was a charge why would I?

Most people I've spoken to in the London area think Co. Durham is in Ireland we are worlds apart unfortunately.

 

[Bellow]

To my mind the recent alarm over NOx and to a lesser degree particulate matter (PM) is an existential threat. Another one to add to the list of things to be afraid that may or may not harm us in modern society. Few if any death certificates of people who have died of heart/ lung disease or a stroke will have the person died of NOx poisioning or died of particulate matter poisoning.

If I blew cigarette smoke in your face - what would you do?
Right, so why should we tolerate other peoples NOx emissions?

 

[m80]

You can Darrell, if you know you are going to enter one of these zones.

I live up North and have never been in one of these zones and have no idea where they are, I don't need to generally and have no wish to more is the point.

Its a bit like saying to someone living in London, why didn't you know there is a charge to go through the Tyne Tunnel?

The first time I went over the Dartford crossing to the Channel Tunnel I didn't realise there was a charge why would I?

Most people I've spoken to in the London area think Co. Durham is in Ireland we are worlds apart unfortunately.

A fair point.
To avoid confusion you might imagine that a national Gov't would create a national standard for participating cities.

Like the need for several rubbish bins, different coloured bins are for different things around the country.