Veggie Oil in E300 Turbodiesel

230K

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Hi

Filled with 45litres of diesel and 15 litres of vegetable oil from Lidl on Friday and have done over 300miles since and am very pleased with the increase in punch the car now has, before there was a delay before getting any serious shove but now the delay is almost gone.

Mpg so far seems the same 300miles when it hits the 1/2 mark.
There is a bit of a smell when you get out of the car but no smoke.

Can anyone explain why the car feels more torquey?
There is a price saving with the veggie oil but for the drivability alone i would stick with the veggie oil.

Anyone else any similar experiences?

230K
 

pepper&boulou

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230K said:
Hi

Filled with 45litres of diesel and 15 litres of vegetable oil from Lidl on Friday and have done over 300miles since and am very pleased with the increase in punch the car now has, before there was a delay before getting any serious shove but now the delay is almost gone.

Mpg so far seems the same 300miles when it hits the 1/2 mark.
There is a bit of a smell when you get out of the car but no smoke.

Can anyone explain why the car feels more torquey?
There is a price saving with the veggie oil but for the drivability alone i would stick with the veggie oil.

Anyone else any similar experiences?

230K
Youre braver than me. I would be terified it went bang and ground to a halt. :eek:Though I might try it if it wouldn't damage the engine. :eek:
 
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OP
230K

230K

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scotth_uk said:
A bit of personal opinion here - you are completely mad.


Reason????
 

Satch

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I presume you are using Rape Seed oil which is about the cheapest in the UK at the moment. Litre for litre it has a lower energy content than normal diesel, but is a tri-glyceride oil and contains 11-12% oxygen in the molecule structure.

Theory is that the oxygen content results in a higher combustion efficiency for veggie oil/diesel mixes that more than compensates for the lower energy content compared to normal diesel, thus improving performance and reducing smoke from combustion.

That is the theory! I have been considering veggie oil/diesel mixes for a while but still have doubts about using it in a modern high pressure injection system. Most of the glowing reports seem to be based upon use in older cars or those with more basic injection systems. (But those fitted with Lucas fuel pumps appear to have suffer some problems. No idea why)

Also not sure if what you can buy in supermarkets is "degummed" oil or has a low gum content, which seems to be important for long term use. Perhaps it does not matter so much if you use an injector cleaner additive.
 

scotth_uk

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>Reason????

Vegetable oil. You cannot convince me that this is a good thing. This is an MB. You didn't buy it to fill it with vegetable oil. I know it works, but it just seems pointless to me.

Have you at least fitted a decent filter to the system?
 

glojo

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scotth_uk said:
A bit of personal opinion here - you are completely mad.


I think that is a bit 'strong'. It must surely be all about freedom of choice. We ALL know that once you put additives into your fuel tank you are 'limiting' your warranty claims. There is no grey area. No, it only applies to 'some' additives. The warranty is a black and white document that states "fuel additives"

If someone decides to save a few pennies then it is their individual choice. We are all adults and capable of reasoned thoughts and I for one respect his decision, but in no way do I agree with it.

:D And I think I am barking mad.

Good luck with your choice, but PLEASE be 200% confident that you are prepared to take any consequences. Also I suppose if you are no longer having your vehicle serviced by a main dealer none of the above applies.

Before anyone says that Mobilio only gives a X term for warranty claims other than bodywork, I suggest they read the warranty very closely.

Bio-Diesel??? If that is an approved fuel I would not hesitate in using it. If I had a 12 year old car??? I would do as much research as possible making sure I included all the 'anti' lobby before I made any decision. If I owned an 'old banger' that was simply a means of transport, then I might have to take a different view. I used to be very indecisive, but now I not to sure whether I am or not?? :)


Good luck with your additives,
John
 
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jimmy

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There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding with vegetable oil or bio diesel. So some of you would be happy to use Bio diesel and not veg oil??

Try Tesco, they sell bio diesel, they call it Global Diesel, 5% Bio Diesel.

What did Rudolf Diesel design the diesel engine to use as a fuel?

Veg oil is better for the engine, modern ultralow sulphur fuels have little lubricity, veg oil lubricates the fuel pump and top end of the engine.

Veg oil is more environmenatlly friendly than dino diesel.

Customs and Excise? I suppose it depends on the ratio and quantity used and the individual.

Why is Bio diesel not widely available at the forecourts?
 

fuzzer

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remember and change your fuel filter after the first tank .... its supposed to get clogged up with all the crap from fuel system ;)
 

glojo

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jimmy said:
So some of you would be happy to use Bio diesel and not veg oil??

Why is Bio diesel not widely available at the forecourts?

Hi Jimmy,
:) Just to make my point very clear. I said, ***Bio-Diesel??? If that is an approved fuel I would not hesitate in using it.***

Once again We are ALL AWARE of the terms and conditions of the warranty.

***The following may lead to increased wear or engine damage:
Using diesel which does not meet the requirements of EN 590
Using marine diesel fuel
Using heating oil
Using vegetable oil methyl ester (VME)

Your warranty entitlement will be restricted if you use non-approved fuels and/or fuel additives such as these******

I will not keep repeating myself because everyone reading this thread is a sensible person and quite capable of making their own decisions. Some of us have decided to use vegetable oil, and some of us have not. I respect both parties, it might however not be wise to encourage any one to use a product that will 'limit' a warranty.

I apologise for appearing an old grouch. I certainly am not, I just want everyone to be aware of their actions. For owners of the 211 the above extract can be found on page 304. It is a word for word copy.

Here endeth my last sermon :)

Good luck to everyone that uses vegetable oil, and for those that own pre-CDI engines please make your own decisions because I have absolutely no knowledge of terms and conditions of any warranty or more to the point ill effects of using vegetable oil.

I also have no knowledge of whether Bio diesel complies with the requiresments of EN 590

Take care,
John
 

Satch

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glojo said:
Hi Jimmy,
:) Just to make my point very clear. I said, ***Bio-Diesel??? If that is an approved fuel I would not hesitate in using it.***

Once again We are ALL AWARE of the terms and conditions of the warranty.

***The following may lead to increased wear or engine damage:
Using diesel which does not meet the requirements of EN 590
Using marine diesel fuel
Using heating oil
Using vegetable oil methyl ester (VME)

Your warranty entitlement will be restricted if you use non-approved fuels and/or fuel additives such as these******

The "bio" part in "bio diesel" sold in this country appears to be vegetable oil methyl ester! That sounds like you cannot use bio diesel at all, but I think they mean running on pure or a high concentration of VME.
 

Satch

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That was bugging me. I know the answer now:

"Why use a blend of 5% biodiesel and 95% ordinary diesel?

There are a number of reasons:

(i) Engine manufacturers' warranties require that all fuel used in their engines must meet a European standard (BS EN 590). Blends of 5% biodiesel in 95% ordinary diesel can meet this standard, but pure biodiesel, or blends containing more than 5% biodiesel, may not. 5% biodiesel in 95% ordinary diesel in order to avoid concerns about the suitability of its product for normal diesel engines.

(ii) A blend of 5% biodiesel in ordinary diesel delivers environmental benefits more efficiently than pure biodiesel. Per unit of biodiesel used, the measured reduction in emissions of greenhouse gases and harmful particulate matter from vehicle exhausts is greatest in low concentration blends. This is due to biodiesel acting as an oxygenating additive to the ordinary diesel, improving the blend's efficiency of combustion over that of either pure fuel.

(iii) There is a limited, but unavoidable variation in the characteristics of biodiesel from different feedstock. Whilst this not detrimental to the engine, this uncertainty may put some potential users off using the fuel. By blending with 95% ordinary diesel, these variances are lost, so that the blended fuel is always the same high quality."
 

silverarrow

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rape seed oil ie bio fuel all the rage in germany same car then can use same fuel rudolf diesel designed diesel engines to run on what we would call veggie oil
do a google search on rudolf diesel interesting ????
 

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You might be interested in knowing that diesel engines were originally deisgned to run on peanut oil. Maybe a little more importantly, british law requires you to tell the government of every liter of oil you use in you car. Reason? Oil is food, food is VAT free. Diesel on the other hand.... So basically when you fill out your tax declaration, you need to tell them how much oil u used and thus pay for it. Another interesting point, is that you can run a diesel car on pure veggie oil, new OR recycled (as long as it is filtered). It is not recommended in a lovely merc, but you can try buying a falling apart car for 100squids, and running it on oil... quite economic. Also of interest is that both tesco and sainsburies are starting to run all their delivery vans on oil (obviously declaring the litres to the govt to pay taxes on). Reason? They use the filtered oil from their frying machine's and thus its practically free!
Ill look around my bookmarks when I have time, there was a whole scietific case study on this...
Spinal

Oh and another point, I have no idea what it'll do to a turbodiesel... Also, as the viscousity of oil is higher than that of diesel, during particularly cold winters, you will need to wait a bit longer for your glowplugs to warm the oil enough for it to work properly.
 
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glojo

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silverarrow said:
rape seed oil ie bio fuel all the rage in germany same car then can use same fuel rudolf diesel designed diesel engines to run on what we would call veggie oil
do a google search on rudolf diesel interesting ????

:) I'm sure no one disagree's. Some Russian military diesel engines are capable of running on practically any sort of refined oil. (crikey my spelling has gone to pot)

Goodniht everyone

Regards to you all,
John
 

bobcat

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I'm curious.... would vegetable oil mixed with regular diesel
work in a 2005 E320 CDI ???
 

se97mlm

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hmm not sure about this. My job involves developing common rail fuel pumps and RME ( bio-diesel up to 15% rape methyl ester) is one of the fuels we use for our accelerated wear test regimes as it has a much lower lubricity than ordinary Diesel. In fact this fuel and the swedish winter fuels (which are virtually kerosene) give us a right headache for premature fuel pump failure. This problem is exacerbated at high fuel temperatures, so don't run your tank low or do lots of stop-start driving on a hot summer's day. Viscosity and thus lubricity decreases dramatically with temperature leading to scuffing of internal components. A pump seizure can also wreck your engine by preventing the camshaft from rotating, thus snapping your cambelt. You have been warned!

The other problem with rape oil is that it attacks the shaft seals and orings in the pump unless they are the later models with upgraded with viton seals. This can cause fuel to mix with the engine oil and also disastrously the opposite. I will ask a few questions at work tomorrow. It would simply not be worth saving a few quid here and there to need a new pump every 1000 hours.

As for anything with a CDi engine, avoid RME like the plague if you don't want trouble. THe Bosch CP1 pump as found in CDi models until fairly recently failed frequently in Germany with their readily available Bio-diesel. So much so that DaimlerChrysler insist on special tests for our new pump.

Rudolph Diesel's engines did not run at 4000 rpm plus, and with injection pressures of 1600 bar (23200 psi :eek: ). These are the major engineering challenges for Diesel Fuel Injection equipment manufacturers.

These fuels are not a problem for heavy duty engines (like HGVs) as their pumps can be much bigger, and there is space to have an engine oil lubrication system for the pump.
 
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glojo

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se97mlm said:
hmm not sure about this. My job involves developing common rail fuel pumps and RME ( bio-diesel up to 15% rape methyl ester) is one of the fuels we use for our accelerated wear test regimes as it has a much lower lubricity than ordinary Diesel. In fact this fuel and the swedish winter fuels (which are virtually kerosene) give us a right headache for premature fuel pump failure. This problem is exacerbated at high fuel temperatures, so don't run your tank low or do lots of stop-start driving on a hot summer's day. Viscosity and thus lubricity decreases dramatically with temperature leading to scuffing of internal components. A pump seizure can also wreck your engine by preventing the camshaft from rotating, thus snapping your cambelt. You have been warned!

Hi se97,
At long last sense raises its head. I have read a lot of messages 'claiming' how vegetable oil and bio diesel actually lubricate the fuel punp. It obviously brings the expertise into question of members making them!!!!

You are someone whose advice really should not be needed, but anyone that owns a CDI engine and has read your message and still puts additives into their engine is indeed taking a 'risk'.

I would very much like to retain a copy of this excellent, very informative message.

Thanks very much for your contribution,
John
 

Satch

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se97mlm said:
hmm not sure about this. My job involves developing common rail fuel pumps and RME ( bio-diesel up to 15% rape methyl ester) is one of the fuels we use for our accelerated wear test regimes as it has a much lower lubricity than ordinary Diesel. In fact this fuel and the swedish winter fuels (which are virtually kerosene) give us a right headache for premature fuel pump failure.

Very interesting. Always good to get the view from someone at the sharp end. So what is the view on bio diesels sold in the UK with a 5% VME content: absent some lubricity additive would the same problem exist although to a lesser extent?

Is there a view on the use of Vegetable Oil/Diesel mixes versus VME/Diesel mixes in terms of pump/injector issues? Appears that the unpleasant nature of Vegetable Methyl Ester makes it potentially worse than Vegetable oil to use in a mix.

A friend tells me that in the US you can buy ready to go VME production units for $4000 that take up no more floor space than a washing machine but are capable of turning out 50+ gallons in a couple of hours. All you need is the base oil, some methanol, sodium hydoxide and water/electrity supply.
From what you have that sounds like a disaster brewing.


Regards


S.
 

Benzowner

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On a slightly worrying note, do we really know what we are provided with at the pumps? Has bio diesel arrived in this country yet, and will warnings be put on the pumps that this fuel could damage your engine? :eek:
 

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