Vito Dualiner - Goods vehicle speeding ticket - NO!

[Headintheclouds]

I share BTB's caution about the camper, but more because of weight than windows. I don't think the side windows have to be next to the rear seats.

See full definition of dual purpose vehicle:

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either—

(i)
is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or

(ii)
satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—

(a)
the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;

(b)
the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must—

(i)
be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and

(ii)
be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and

(c)
the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.

 

[BTB 500]

I don't think the side windows have to be next to the rear seats.

I think it's a bit of a grey area, which I wouldn't personally want to gamble on! The regs. do state:

"constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods"

It could be argued that having the rear windows and rear seats in different places doesn't comply with that - it's not normal for passengers to be sitting in an unglazed area.

 

[Headintheclouds]

I think it's a bit of a grey area, which I wouldn't personally want to gamble on! The regs. do state:

"constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods"

It could be argued that having the rear windows and rear seats in different places doesn't comply with that - it's not normal for passengers to be sitting in an unglazed area.

I agree with your caution, but it's pretty clear that the windows just need to be behind the driver's seat. Could be anywhere, any shape, any size and as many or as few as you like. Could even be at foot level. The only stipulation is total area. That said, the nearer you are to the accepted norm, the easier it will be to argue your case.

 

[st13phil]

This is another area where the law has failed to keep pace with changes in vehicle styles, and as a consequence is unnecessarily difficult to interpret reliably. CDV's are a notoriously difficult area because the primary test is whether or not the van came first or the car came first. Add in platform sharing and it becomes a complete unworkable mess - just ask someone with a Citroen Berlingo which, depending upon the generation, either qualifies as a CDV or doesn't, yet is in essence the same vehicle.

Frankly, the whole matter needs to be reconsidered from a point of view of what it is that is trying to be achieved, i.e. why the reduced speed limit for vans, and whether that's appropriate for the modern breed of vehicles or not.

 

[BTB 500]

I agree with your caution, but it's pretty clear that the windows just need to be behind the driver's seat. Could be anywhere, any shape, any size and as many or as few as you like. Could even be at foot level. The only stipulation is total area. That said, the nearer you are to the accepted norm, the easier it will be to argue your case.

It does state that the area must be lit on each side by the windows though, which would probably rule out foot level ones! If it was me I'd simply have a pair of rear side windows put in - this wouldn't be expensive, and would save a lot of potential hassle.

 

[BTB 500]

Frankly, the whole matter needs to be reconsidered from a point of view of what it is that is trying to be achieved, i.e. why the reduced speed limit for vans, and whether that's appropriate for the modern breed of vehicles or not.

Absolutely. If a Vito van has the same maximum gross weight as a V Class or Viano that's mechanically identical why would they need different speed limits?

 

[219]

I don't think so. It's a car, not a van. Most of it is pretty well defined - car, car derived van, van, lorry...

The grey area is smaller vans that are not car derived. Either dual purpose vehicle or not. The definition is reasonably clear but is not well published or well known

Well , I remember when a colleague was looking for a lease vehicle recently, and apparently one of the HMRC rules is that any vehicle with a load capacity of 1 tonne or more is classed as a light commercial vehicle ( LCV ) and falls into a different taxation class , hence so many pick up trucks have a capacity just over that figure , even with the optional hard top .

Since any E Class estate , thanks to SLS , comfortably exceeds that figure , it could be so construed .

 

[Dick260871]

So I received a NIP from North Wales Police for 69 on a dual carriageway. I have W639 Dualiner, with windows, seats etc. They are adamant that because the vehicle is registered with DVLA as LGV/Panel Van that the notice stands. However, I posed this question to PNLD FAQ - and they have stated that the vehicle meets the definition of DPV as below. Needless to say, North Wales Police stand by their NIP so it will have to go to Magistrates Court - we can't have grey areas when it is the law........

A dual purpose vehicle is defined as a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either- (i)is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or (ii)satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely- (a)the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel; (b)the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must- (i)be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and (ii)be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and (c)the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.

The dual purpose category generally includes cars, estates, pickups (with a second row of seats (crew cab) only), and domestic 4x4 vehicles such as Land Rovers, Jeeps, and other similar vehicles below 2040 kgs unladen weight.

In order to find your vehicle's unladen weight, we would suggest you check in the vehicle's handbook or ask a reputable dealer.

If a vehicle, though constructed or adapted to carry goods and passengers, does not come within the definition of a dual purpose vehicle, because its unladen weight exceeds 2040 kg or it has a non-rigid roof or its seats run lengthways and not transversely or it doesn't have the required amount of glass etc., it will under the regulations be a goods vehicle, whether or not it is carrying goods. The link below gives the speed limits for dual purpose and goods vehicles.

Speed limits

We hope this information is of use.

Regards,

PNLD

(CS)

 

[BTB 500]

Yep, what's written on the V5 makes no difference (and is often wrong - as mentioned my Dualiner also said 'panel van'). If the vehicle meets the physical criteria to be a DPV then it is one ... end of story. For the sake of a phone call to the DVLA you might want to get your V5 changed to avoid similar hassle in future though - mine now says 'van/side windows'.

 

[Dick260871]

Yep, what's written on the V5 makes no difference (and is often wrong - as mentioned my Dualiner also said 'panel van'). If the vehicle meets the physical criteria to be a DPV then it is one ... end of story. For the sake of a phone call to the DVLA you might want to get your V5 changed to avoid similar hassle in future though - mine now says 'van/side windows'.

Did the DVLA require any documentation to validate the change from panel van to van/side windows? And does that actually change anything at all if the vehicle is still N1 class? Its a very grey area to some people, well it is to the darlings of North Wales Police, but according to the Govt website it meets the requirement of a DPV, end of, period.

 

[m80]

Did the DVLA require any documentation to validate the change from panel van to van/side windows? And does that actually change anything at all if the vehicle is still N1 class? Its a very grey area to some people, well it is to the darlings of North Wales Police, but according to the Govt website it meets the requirement of a DPV, end of, period.

Unless you can speak Welsh you might encounter other issues with the Heddlu.
Any automated telephone system already takes twice as long to navigate.

Wales are wanting to change the name of their most famous mountain to Yr Wyddfa and so the English can't find it any longer Mr John Pughe Roberts wants to move it to somewhere in Eyrie, where ever that is.

 

[BTB 500]

Did the DVLA require any documentation to validate the change from panel van to van/side windows? And does that actually change anything at all if the vehicle is still N1 class?

No, I just rang them up and they changed it. Being registered as a 'panel van' is clearly wrong and should be amended regardless.

 

[Dick260871]

I have pursued the query via PNLD FAQ - and today received another response, this clearly sums up the grey area concerning speed limits.
They told me it is not a straight forward manner......and referred me to this article - Ok it is regarding motorcaravans but the situation is the same.
Campervan speed limits: what they are, why they are so confusing

The statement near the end which says "For according to the DVLA and the Department for Transport (we’ve checked with both), regardless of what the vehicle is described as on the V5C, as long as the owner believes it meets the government’s definition of a motor caravan it can still be operated as one"

So in other words, Joe Public can decide how fast he drives?????

My view - grey area=not guilty

 

[tjamesbo]

Its a permanent worry this I follow car speed limits as the usual way of getting done is to go over the car limit by say 5mph and find yourself with a fine for 15mph the auto cameras dont know your a van just a speeding object so you cant get done for doing 70 if your doing 70 on a dual carriageway if it has a 70 limit (ie 60 for vans )
However Im not sure if the mobile units are that clever?? -possibly are because it has a human operator / observer so thats still a risk ? ie he clocks you as a van therefore applies the reduced limit ?
I ve read many threads and until i saw Bills comment most had failed to get the reg document changed
It is a factor making me wonder whether to get a viano next time but then theres the £500+ road Tax
Keep us posted How you get on mIght look at changing mine
Had to be North wales though theyve always had a reputation the chief ****stable was known for being tough on speeding

 

[Dick260871]

and the latest reply......
As we stated in our previous email this is not a straightforward matter. We have provided all the information that we are able to and done our best to explain the issues involved.
Please be aware that we are a national database that answers questions of a general legal nature on behalf of police forces in the UK and so all we can provide is general information.
If a police force took action against you in this vehicle for a speeding offence and you believed they were mistaken, you would have to go to court and it would then be a matter for the court to decide.

So that's all clear then ha ha ha ha